Was he a racist?

[numenorian]

I have heard many rumours about Tolkien that he was a racist(well i don't believe it but i want to be sure) well if anyone knows sth more about this topic i would be very glad to hear it

[Gil Galad]

I hsve read a few biographies on him and i know he had slaves as a child, but he appreciated them, not looked down on them, as far as being a rascist i gathered no info from my reading as to his being a rascist, so i would say not, though i dont know everything.

[Andúnië]

Where are people drawing this conclusion? From the details of his life or from his writings? I have only heard people suggesting that Tolkien was racist when referring/drawing from his works. Under what circumstances was this statement made, and why? Are there any more details?

[numenorian]

Well as i far as ive heard from rumours mostly is the way he presented his work,like the black ppl(haradrim) were presented as evil ones and that was because of his place of birth(south Africa) where there re serious racism problems.To tell you the truth i dont believe these rumours because Tolkien had said that his books imply nothing so...

[Gil Galad]

It said the Haradrim were dark skinned, that doesnt mean they were black, they could have been indian or the like.

[Andúnië]

Yes, that theory about the demographics and geographic placement of peoples and countries was the one I have heard. I do not believe this was intentional. Middle-Earth was located approximately at the position of western Europe, and the rest of the nations radiated outwards from there.

[LOTRfan1414]

Well actually, another reason people believe that Tolkein was a racist is refering to the Nazgul as "black" (He uses this term several times in FOTR)also the Gaffer uses the term black "chap." Some people believe that he used this term in a derrogotory way, but i think he was definitly refering to their cloaks.

[Beren One-Hand]

I don't think the LOTR's was intended to reflect predjudice or racist views.  And as to the Nazgul, being also called Black Riders, one needs to look deeper as to who the Nazgul really were.  Many were kings or warriors or even oracles of old.  Among the Nine were "fallen" Numenorians, which makes them "white" or Caucasian.  Remember the last mighty king of Numenor?  Ar-Pharazon was his name and he ultimately fell from grace and was deceived by Sauron in the fall of Numenor.  I believe he became one of the Nine.

I would not be surprised, and this might be more speculative, if the 2 Blue Wizards might have been among the Nine.

Black is simply only meant to reflect evil, not race or culture.

As to the Haradrim and the Easterlings?  The rivalry might have been more geographical, and these groups sided or were also deceived by Sauron.  Their color, in my view doesn't have much bearing on whether or not Tokien was racist.  Sauron's armies consisted in a plethora of diversity, when you really look at them.

[Mithrandir]

Remember the last mighty king of Numenor?  Ar-Pharazon was his name and he ultimately fell from grace and was deceived by Sauron in the fall of Numenor.  I believe he became one of the Nine.

Small detail: Ar-Pharazôn and all his warriors that sat foot on Aman were imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten until the Last Battle. It doesn't add anything to this discussion, but he wasn't one of the Nine.

I would not be surprised, and this might be more speculative, if the 2 Blue Wizards might have been among the Nine.

The Nine were Men, not Maiar. Next to that: the Nine walked abroad before the Wizards came to Middle-earth.

Black is simply only meant to reflect evil, not race or culture.

Right! Ever thought about 'black art', 'blackmail', 'blacklist', 'black mark', 'blackguard', etc.?

Does that mean you're a racist when you use these words?

Black is the color of the night, of things unknown and that scares people. The Nine Riders wore black. Not really frightening if they were wearing pink, would they?

The Dark Lord covers things in darkness. People don't seem to have trouble with the word 'darkness' though it is used in the same way as the word 'black'.  Why is that? Because they don't relate that word immediately with a race of people. The problem of racism really is in the eyes of the reader. Tolkien was not a racist. If you think he was, please give me some quotes from Tolkien himself. Otherwise: there's no point in discussing it any further.

[Beren One-Hand]

The Nine were not neccessarily men.  It is only the movie which states they were "kings of men."  I believe it is in the Unfinished Tales which suggests that the Nine did not neccessarily have to be men.  I'd have to find my copy for an exact quote, though. 

Okay, you're right with regards to Ar-Pharazon (I should have reviewed this again - oops), but I also read that among the Nine were Numenorean kings.  These kings are not named - the reference is more vague.

At least were on the same page that Tolkien was not a racist.

[Mithrandir]

The Nine were not neccessarily men.  It is only the movie which states they were "kings of men."  I believe it is in the Unfinished Tales which suggests that the Nine did not neccessarily have to be men.  I'd have to find my copy for an exact quote, though.

"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

and:

"Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants."
(both from The Lord of the Rings - Book I - Chapter II - The Shadow of the Past; emphasis mine)

I'm very interested in a quote from the Unfinished Tales, but I rather the quotes above. Even though I've read the Unfinished Tales, I didn't come across a hint that the Nine were not necessarily Men.


Nonetheless: back on topic! Apologies for this small off-topic interruption.

[Beren One-Hand]

Mithrandir:  I think I was mistaken.  When I checked another source, I read, as I alluded to, that among the Nine were Numenoreans.  Well to clarify - three were Black Numenoreans (Numenoreans that inter-mixed with the Haradrim) - this was correct.  However, I could not find the mysterious quote that the Nine might not have been men.  Having recently moved, I still cannot find my copy of the Unfinished Tales.  Your quotes are correct - I know these too - silly me  If I were to find something to this effect I wil get back to you.  Anyway, it is good to have some good LOTR's talk anyway. 

Beren

How does one become one of the Valar on this site?

[Mithrandir]

Black Numenoreans (Numenoreans that inter-mixed with the Haradrim)

Weren't the Black Númenóreans just Númenóreans who followed Sauron? I can't recall anything about an intermixing with Haradrim.

Anyway, it is good to have some good LOTR's talk anyway.

It sure is

How does one become one of the Valar on this site?

When the need arises of more moderators/administrators, we will announce it and probably select some people and ask them if they want to become mod/admin. Just reply to that announcement and we will consider it.


But on topic: Isn't it odd that Tolkien is accused of racism, while he created an entire world of different races living together (more or less) peacefully? Doesn't he propagate cooperation and mutual friendship between the different races? (Just look at the Fellowship)

[Beren One-Hand]

True, and when you look at the fellowship, you might not have different skin colors, per se, but you have different cultures and rivalries coming together.  You have humans; dwarves; hobbits; a wizard, etc.  And even among the human races which were allied there were rivalries - Gondor and Rohan.  But dispite all of this the good peoples of Middle Earth come together with all their differences and diversity and it is an amazing thing.

[Andúnië]

True, and when you look at the fellowship, you might not have different skin colors, per se, but you have different cultures and rivalries coming together.  You have humans; dwarves; hobbits; a wizard, etc.  And even among the human races which were allied there were rivalries - Gondor and Rohan.  But dispite all of this the good peoples of Middle Earth come together with all their differences and diversity and it is an amazing thing.

This is a good example; it proves that Tolkien did not write with a racist viewpoint. It reflects the interacton of people in real life. However, it does not address the countries south and east of Mordor, which were populated by dark-skinned people who supported evil. I believe this was unintentional, as it is all a matter of the reader's perception.