Bush Impeachment?

[Beren One-Hand]

Fair enough Zaku.  That is a reasonable opionion.  I guess you are against capital punishment then?  I am for it only for certain offenses - murder, sexual offenses etc.  But it is not a view that I take a "hard-line" stance on either.  In Canada our system works okay.  There is no capital punishment.  The worst sentence someone can get is an indefinite sentence, this is likey someone who is labelled a "dangerous offender" in the Canadian Criminal Code.  I know that in America laws differ from state-to-state.  States like Utah and California have the death penalty, whereas other states do not.  Somehow it could be deemed a more worse or severe conviction to spend the rest of your living days behind bars.

[Zaku]

Um... people don't oppose the death penalty because a life sentence is harsher, they oppose it because it's a horrible thing.

And yes, I am against capital punishment. Noone should ever kill someone when it isn't necessary. Also, it's kinda stupid and a little hypocritical... "if you kill someone, we'll kill you  back!"

[Beren One-Hand]

But in criminology you have to look at what might pose a greater deterent to commit crimes.  This is open for debate.  Deterents probably differ from person to person.  One might hate to be locked up their entire life, and thus would rather die.  And furthermore, this individual might be more detered to commit certain crimes (under the Canadian system) which would get him/her an indeterminate sentence.  Another might fear death, and for them, the death sentence would be the worse punishment that could be given to them.  They might be less likely to committ a serious offence like murder under this kind of system.  Or they would flee, say California, and hide somewhere else.  Also, the physciatric condition of the individual would also have something to say here as well.  Many criminals don't think rationally - whether they have a mental disorder or whether they let their rage get the better of them.

Your system shows that your country is divided on the issue.  Those who believe in capital punishment hold to an "eye for an eye" stance.  Somehow I think there is some validity to that.  Although I am not advocating vigilante justice, but belief that it is the "states' " job to carry out such punishment and sentences.  Anyway, the Canadian system seems to work fine enough.  I have heard that it costs more money to execute a criminal than to keep him/her behind bars for the rest of their life.

[Zaku]

Ah, the deterrent argument. I thought this would come up.
Basically, I don't agree with punishing someone just to "make an example of them" to everyone else. Yeah, it might deter people from committing the crime, but the pain it causes those who get the punishment isn't worth it. I believe in making sacrifices for the sake of the individual. I think that's a core value in America, but that might have changed sometime after WWII.

Besides, you have to imagine, someone who is going to commit a murder, and knows he could be executed, must either think he's going to get away with it or is too crazy to care.

[Beren One-Hand]

Makes sense.  As I said, I don't take a "hard-line" stance on the capital punishment issue, I just think there might be some validity to it.  I'm not going to picket outside of a prison or court house either - that's ridiculous.

I like the deterrent argument because someone who committs a crime should be made an example of, one way, or another.  Whether it's a teenager who steals something from a convenience store, and gets taken away by the cops in front of his peers, and then spends a couple of nights in jail; or whether it's someone who gets the death penalty.  But an argument can be made in Canada that having to serve one's life behind bars is as much of a deterrent as getting the death penalty.

And your right, and also as I said, regarding the physciatric and "rage" factors, a criminal might not be thinking about the consequences to begin with.  But you have to think that someone who is involved in organized crime, might have the whole deterrent thing in the back of their mind, because after all, their very life and career is about criminal activity.

[Dennis]

Well, just like the reason I don't believe in God, I just don't see any reason why I should. I just happen to be from here. I enjoy the benefits of health, education, etc. which that brings, but theres no reason to be "proud" of it...
Anyways, how exactly does being proud of a country work? I've never really experienced it. Are you just super-satisfied of its government's actions? Are you in support of its people?

I take pride in America. I take pride in the fact that we are the freest, the strongest, the wealthiest and the smartest. In the last 100 years America has saved the world from evil nuts twice, saved millions of lives in the process, been the leader in just about every field, from military to economic to social to cultural. We have one of the oldest functioning republics in existence, and have never had an unsuccessful or violent transition of power.

For 200 years, America has been the place where people who are poor, oppressed, seeking opportunity come to make a better life. We are the best country in the world, and it is our parents and grandparents and even we ourselves who have made it as such. That is something in which I can gladly take pride. When I see the flag waving or hear the national anthem playing, it reminds me of all of those things and it makes me 'proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free.' How many people around the world can't say those words, 'I know I'm free?' I think the fact that we can says a lot.

Beren, know what else makes me proud to hear? "Let's go Red Wings" echoing around the Joe Louis Arena.

Numenorian: I'm quite sure that a socialist world would please you immensely. At least until you had to wait in a bread line for hours to keep from starving, and had to give away all of what you earned to feed the hobo on the corner. That is the reality of life under a communist government, it was in the Soviet Union and it is in North Korea and Cuba. Communism is a failed social system. You are living and prospering under the same system you detest. Simply because someone has gained advantages in life doesn't make them criminals.

Anyways, sorry to bump a somewhat old topic, but I felt like getting that off my chest.

[Zaku]

Well, just like the reason I don't believe in God, I just don't see any reason why I should. I just happen to be from here. I enjoy the benefits of health, education, etc. which that brings, but theres no reason to be "proud" of it...
Anyways, how exactly does being proud of a country work? I've never really experienced it. Are you just super-satisfied of its government's actions? Are you in support of its people?

I take pride in America. I take pride in the fact that we are the freest Arguable. the strongest A. Doesn't matter in today's world B. not against insurgents/terrorists/people who actually want to fight us the wealthiest no argument. and the smartest WAY arguable.. In the last 100 years America has saved the world from evil nuts twice Who? I think Hitler was mostly Russia, and I can't really think of a second. saved millions of lives in the process and caused problems for many been the leader in just about every field, from military to economic to social to cultural We have one of the oldest functioning republics in existence, and have never had an unsuccessful or violent transition of power.

My replies in bold.

[numenorian]

Numenorian: I'm quite sure that a socialist world would please you immensely. At least until you had to wait in a bread line for hours to keep from starving, and had to give away all of what you earned to feed the hobo on the corner. That is the reality of life under a communist government, it was in the Soviet Union and it is in North Korea and Cuba. Communism is a failed social system. You are living and prospering under the same system you detest. Simply because someone has gained advantages in life doesn't make them criminals.


[/quote]
First of all i want to keep saying that you re under the brainwashed propaganda in my opinion just because i say sth different you put names on me.Btw north corea is not under communism but under facism and that is tottaly different,communism and socialism has nothin to do with military.In adddition saying things about Cuba is not the most appropriate example because in Cuba there re no drugs,no prostitution and is the only country in south America which citizens re not starving.I would also like to say to you that i don't care if we have capitalism or communism or any other political system as long as our leaders do the things they must and not giving us propaganda.

[Beren One-Hand]

Denis: I'm glad to hear you like hockey.  You can give a big thanks to a good Canadian lad named Steve Yzerman for the success of the Wings the last decade or so.  I must say it would be something special to see an NHL game at Joe Louis.

You know what would be funny?  Sadam and his Bathe Party playing hockey against a team of North American all-stars.  "Iginla delivers a bone crushing hit to Hussein.  Hussein hits the ice hard, but is able to shake it off when Pronger lays a beating on him.  Sadam is heading to the dressing room and will be out indefinitely."

[Dennis]

A. Doesn't matter in today's world B. not against insurgents/terrorists/people who actually want to fight us

Yes it does. We destroyed Saddam's armies twice, outlasted the Soviet Union, kicked ass in Somalia, Bosnia, all over the place. We are beating the insurgents militarily, but losing politically. If we lose in Iraq it won't be for lack of military strength.

WAY arguable.

Even with Japan and the far east doing so much technologically, we are still the world's technological leaders.

Who? I think Hitler was mostly Russia, and I can't really think of a second.

I was referring to the kaiser.

First of all i want to keep saying that you re under the brainwashed propaganda in my opinion just because i say sth different you put names on me.

I haven't 'put names on you'.

Btw north corea is not under communism but under facism and that is tottaly different

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#Government_and_politics
"North Korea is officially described as a socialist republic"

Get your facts straight.

communism and socialism has nothin to do with military

As Marx would have described it, you are right. In reality though, it does.

[Zaku]

Yes it does. We destroyed Saddam's armies twice, outlasted the Soviet Union, kicked ass in Somalia, Bosnia, all over the place. We are beating the insurgents militarily, but losing politically. If we lose in Iraq it won't be for lack of military strength.

I mean in today's world, "kicking ass" isn't as important as keeping peace. Destroying Saddam's army a second time and kicking his government out opened up a lot of chaos and turmoil, as you may have noticed.
And, as you mentioned we are losing politically. Well, that's what's important. What's more valuable, killing poor Sunni teenagers who join militias or having the rest of the world "get our backs" when we invade Iran? Or how about not having the Mideast hate us, so the threat of terrorism isn't worse than ever like it is today?

Even with Japan and the far east doing so much technologically, we are still the world's technological leaders.

Eh, Japan certainly looks better than us then...
also, I was referring to overall intelligence, not technology.

I was referring to the kaiser.

Ah. Eh... crazy threat to the world?

[numenorian]

DENNIS:In reality all the political systems re military based and if u can't see that then you re tottaly blind.Just because you say we kicked asses and stuff like that if you re proud having your country killing people in the name of money u re tottaly spoiled and really you have lost your humanity.

[LOTRfan1414]

Numenorian i disagree with you, the United States' government is not military based. There are a lot of people still who would do the right thing in government. Do not hang your head in despair just yet there are a lot of good people still in power. I believe that Iraq will eventually become democratic(once we finally leave and give the Iraqi's a choice of what they want to do and even then it could take years.) and the whole middle east will become democratic one day. I believe that the power of human spirit will triumph over the insurgents, dangerous fanatics, and evil people.

Now to get back on topic, what do you guys think about Bush's speech about sending more troops to Iraq?

[numenorian]

You re not military based?How can you say that when USA right now has the most weapon industries.Also all the wars after WW2 were made by the USA.Let me tell you sth else even if Bush leaves the same things will be happening and you know why?Because none of your presidents in your history(except if you go before the 20th century) had the control they were puppets from weapon industries,insurance companies and cia ofc.Just think why does bush insist on leavin troops in Iraq?is it his choice?I don't think so..

[Andúnië]

Also all the wars after WW2 were made by the USA.don't think so..

Those "wars made by the US" weren't "made" by the U.S. The U.S. was trying to solve problems and defend itself, perhaps not against physical threats and invasion every time, but it was still in defense of something.

Because none of your presidents in your history(except if you go before the 20th century) had the control they were puppets from weapon industries,insurance companies and cia ofc.Just think why does bush insist on leavin troops in Iraq?is it his choice?I don't think so..

Sometimes people are influenced to make decisions based on external pressure, but that is a very skewed viewpoint. Our government may have problems, but it is not that corrupted. Look at all the opposition to Bush's decisions, to start with.