A ((peaceful)) Debate about Religion.

[Amroth]

   Hey ya'll.  I'm not on here to pick a fight like I was on the last servers.  lol.  I've changed muchly since then, and drawn closer to God.
   Anyways, though.  I noted that Screams made a debate in which he/she specifically asked people not to debate, but to let everyone believe what they believe.  While I am quite glad that there is a place like that on this forum, I also see the need to be able to debate, and try((though many people on here have told me time and time again that they will not believe in Christ, and become a Christian, I still feel it my duty to try.))to convince people to come to Christ.  One person stated that they had never been told that they "were going to Hell so many times."  I don't know if they were speaking specifically of me, or someone else, but it applies to me as much as any other.  I will not tell people this, though I do believe it, and don't view it as a sin to tell someone that they are lost and on tehir way to a Devil's Hell, but because I would like to enjoy a peaceful debate, instead of one in which I fight members, and mods alike.  I will however try to convince people, by facts, and logic, and not just verses((though those come in handy, sometimes.  lol.)), that what I'm saying is right.
   If no one wants to join in this debate, and peacefully discuss our beliefs, in which I am willing to listen to what other people have to say, and respect it, so long as they treat me the same, and I think we'll all come out either stronger.  If you do not want to listen to my "preaching," then simply don't debate.  I'll try not to get "preachy," so long as you guys listen to fact, and logic.

   Oh, and just in case anybody didn't already know, I used to be Billy the Kid, Erik the Viking, and Ent-friend.   ;D

[Pulsifer]

Very well.

I posit that Jesus was a normal - albeit politically foresightful and kind - human being with no supernatural features. I posit that Christianity is built by persona and upper-class groups who desire political, financial and ideological power for themselves. Hell, I'll even posit that the Bible is full of disgusting amoralities, like Kings 2:23 (NIV) which would make me nauseous if I actually believed it to be true.

But I guess that's a bit aggressive. More reflective of my normal perspective of religion is that it, in it's organised form, is becoming vastly unneccessary and even harmful for humanity, in the general sense.

[Amroth]

   Upper-class?  What do you mean by that?  As for II Kings 2:23,((I loathe NIV.  They twist things.)) just try and tell me how it is that you can call that wrong, while you say nothing of innocent children being cut apart each and every day, in a lot greater numbers than those in II Kings, by people who claim that they have the right.  The Bible says that death, destruction, and hell are the only rewards for those who mock and persecute his chosen.
   If Jesus was just a kind man as you say, then let me answer with one of C.S. Lewis' quotes:

   "...A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher.  He would either be a lunatic-on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell.
   "...You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him, and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God.  But let us not come up with any patronizing non-sense about Him being a great moral teacher.  He has not left that open to us.  He did not intend to."
                                                 ~C.S. Lewis, "Mere Christianity"

   I've got to go, now.  TTYL.

[Pulsifer]

   Upper-class?  What do you mean by that?  As for II Kings 2:23,((I loathe NIV.  They twist things.)) just try and tell me how it is that you can call that wrong, while you say nothing of innocent children being cut apart each and every day, in a lot greater numbers than those in II Kings, by people who claim that they have the right.  The Bible says that death, destruction, and hell are the only rewards for those who mock and persecute his chosen.

Well, props to God for being consequent and sending a bear to maul children. Kudos, your God is a great guy. (Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek?") What is your point, though? I am already perfectly aware of the fact that humans are assholes who are perfectly capable of blowing up children. Following a Deity who sends bears to maul children still seems morbid, though.

If Jesus was just a kind man as you say, then let me answer with one of C.S. Lewis' quotes:

   "...A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher.  He would either be a lunatic-on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell.
   "...You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him, and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God.  But let us not come up with any patronizing non-sense about Him being a great moral teacher.  He has not left that open to us.  He did not intend to."
                                                 ~C.S. Lewis, "Mere Christianity"

How quaint. I am not allowed to give him some credit, without buying the advertising line bait, tackle and sinker  Bullshit. There is historical evidence of the existance of Jesus, most of which credit him with very humanist perspectives, and I am not allowed to give him props for that? Even if I don't actually believe him to be 'God-touched'?

"The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins." - Soren Kierkegaard.

[Amroth]

   "Well, props to God for being consequent and sending a bear to maul children. Kudos, your God is a great guy. (Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek?") What is your point, though? I am already perfectly aware of the fact that humans are ***holes who are perfectly capable of blowing up children. Following a Deity who sends bears to maul children still seems morbid, though. "

   Actually, for your information, I was referring to abortion, in which children are "cut apart," as I said, not blown up.  If you believe that God is wrong for sending a bear to slay children who mocked a man of God, then surely you must believe that abortion is wrong, and if not, your arguement is void.
   As for "turning the other cheek," that law applies to man, and man only.

   "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord."
                                                                         ~Romans 12:19

   God wants men to turn the other cheek when someone offends, or attacks them.  This is so that men rely on God, and "give place unto wrath."  And if you think that what God did to those mocking children was evil, then you have one big surprise waiting for you should you read Revelations.  It says that any who believe not on the son will spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels.

   "How quaint. I am not allowed to give him some credit, without buying the advertising line bait, tackle and sinker  Bull****. There is historical evidence of the existance of Jesus, most of which credit him with very humanist perspectives, and I am not allowed to give him props for that? Even if I don't actually believe him to be 'God-touched'?

"The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins." - Soren Kierkegaard."

   Actually, quite right.  If you were to tell me that you had just found a way to live forever, and also a way to heal cancer, do you think I would honor you AT ALL by denying your claim to have found a way to live forever, and yet honored you as the one who found the cure to cancer?  No!  You would be angry, and feel uncared about.  You rejecting Jesus' being the only way to eternal life, while accepting him as a "good man," is ignorant, and dishonoring to Him.  Of course, in the parable about you finding the cure to cancer, and a way to live forever, it makes much more sense to disbelieve you about the latter discovery, in that it has little to do with the first.  As for Jesus, He could not have been a "good man," if He had called himself God, and not been God.  For instance, there is a hispanic man who was recently on the Today show, calling himself, Jesus.  The man was not Jesus, and thus I will not consider him a "good man," though he should teach every moral thing that Jesus taught.  If John Wesley had stated that he was God, I would not consider him a "good man," either.  You see the point?

[Wolfchild]

Quite how I missed this thread yeaterday astonishes me.

   Anyways, though.  I noted that Screams made a debate in which he/she specifically asked people not to debate, but to let everyone believe what they believe.  While I am quite glad that there is a place like that on this forum, I also see the need to be able to debate, and try((though many people on here have told me time and time again that they will not believe in Christ, and become a Christian, I still feel it my duty to try.))to convince people to come to Christ. [/b}

And there I was thinking people enjoyed the decision to not let religion segregate members on this board. Guess what, Elohim, we made that decision because we wanted to avoid threads like this- why can't you understand that? I'm all for debating, but you of all people know full well where this will lead. It's happening already. You won't shift on your beliefs, but your going to try and make others shift on theirs? How would you feel if I tried to do the same thing by  convincing you and others to become atheist? Sound selfish? Well yes, Elohim, that's exactly what you are being.

  One person stated that they had never been told that they "were going to Hell so many times."  I don't know if they were speaking specifically of me, or someone else, but it applies to me as much as any other.  I will not tell people this, though I do believe it, and don't view it as a sin to tell someone that they are lost and on tehir way to a Devil's Hell, but because I would like to enjoy a peaceful debate, instead of one in which I fight members, and mods alike.  I will however try to convince people, by facts, and logic, and not just verses((though those come in handy, sometimes.  lol.)), that what I'm saying is right.

How dare you think that about other people. You have no right to do so just because they are of different or of a different religion to your own. Thinking this sort of comment will provoke a 'peaceful' debate is just dellusional. Your approach in general is, frankly, disgusting.

   If no one wants to join in this debate, and peacefully discuss our beliefs, in which I am willing to listen to what other people have to say, and respect it, so long as they treat me the same, and I think we'll all come out either stronger.  If you do not want to listen to my "preaching," then simply don't debate.  I'll try not to get "preachy," so long as you guys listen to fact, and logic.

Don't you get it? You are being preachy! Of course I don't want to listen to it, nor do I want to see it written, but, frankly, when you are saying such things, how can I simply avoid them and ignore this sort of attitude? As long as we listen to you, you'll avoid being preachy? No, you've already done that Elohim. And I think you always will, as long as you are on this board.

If you can't let people just believe what they want to belive, then I don't think you should have the privelidge of being on this board as it is. By making this thread you prove anyway that you cannot accept any belief other than Christianity.

Oh dear, it seems I have become ensnared in another Christian debate...but can you honestly blame me with the sorts of things you are saying?

[Amroth]

   "And there I was thinking people enjoyed the decision to not let religion segregate members on this board. Guess what, Elohim, we made that decision because we wanted to avoid threads like this- why can't you understand that? I'm all for debating, but you of all people know full well where this will lead. It's happening already. You won't shift on your beliefs, but your going to try and make others shift on theirs? How would you feel if I tried to do the same thing by  convincing you and others to become atheist? Sound selfish? Well yes, Elohim, that's exactly what you are being."

   Actually, in case you didn't notice, or chose not to notice, I stated very clearly that I'm open to anyone trying to convince me to their beliefs.  I didn't say I would change, nor did I say that anyone else must.  I am simply saying that I would like to be able to debate here, as I believe everyone should be able to.  Freely.  I'm perfectly fine with people trying to tell me how stupid, and ignorant I am for believing in God.  Easybreath already has, and I've replied with sense, logic, and a little help from the Bible.  The only reason I used the Bible was because Easybreath was trying to show me an alleged discrepancy in God's Word, which I was disproving with God's Word.
   If you want to debate with science, and all the "facts" that point to God's inexistence, then go ahead, and I'll show you with facts, why I believe God does exist.

   "How dare you think that about other people. You have no right to do so just because they are of different or of a different religion to your own. Thinking this sort of comment will provoke a 'peaceful' debate is just dellusional. Your approach in general is, frankly, disgusting."

   Nice of you to say that.  But in case you didn't know, Evolutionists continuously say that I evolved from nothing, to biological soup, to germs, and fish, and monkeys, then finally to me.  Isn't that nice?  While I tell people that they are God's greatest, and most beautiful creation, gloriously crafted after God's own Image, and that they have a FREE CHOICE between spending all eternity in Heaven, or Hell, and that all they have to do to get to Heaven is simply believe that Jesus lived a perfect life, died on the cross, and rose three days later; Evolutionists tell me I'm a "cosmic accident," and that I evolved from a billion different things, until I finally became me, and both Evolutionists, and Atheists tell me that when I die, I'm going to enter some "void," in which I will not even exist!  How nice!  Personally, I'd much rather go to Heaven!

   "Don't you get it? You are being preachy! Of course I don't want to listen to it, nor do I want to see it written, but, frankly, when you are saying such things, how can I simply avoid them and ignore this sort of attitude? As long as we listen to you, you'll avoid being preachy? No, you've already done that Elohim. And I think you always will, as long as you are on this board.

   "If you can't let people just believe what they want to belive, then I don't think you should have the privelidge of being on this board as it is. By making this thread you prove anyway that you cannot accept any belief other than Christianity.

Oh dear, it seems I have become ensnared in another Christian debate...but can you honestly blame me with the sorts of things you are saying?"

   I never said you had to listen to me.  I never said you even had to come on this debate.  All I'm doing is offering people a chance to try and convince me of their beliefs, and asking them to give me a chance to try and convince them!  I already said I won't use the Bible, unless it comes up, such as it already has!  Am I not allowed to defend my God against those who would say he's evil?  If one person on here can prove to me that God does not exist, or that I am wrong in believing in Him, or something of the sort, I'll stop debating!  Total!  I believe I can answer to any "evidence" that God does not exist with facts, and logic!  If you're not willing to debate with facts, and logic, and your only defense is that I shouldn't be debating, then just don't debate!  Easybreath's doing it very well!  I had a hard time finding the verses in the Bible to back my arguements.  If you want to show me some alleged discrepancy, then show me it, and I'll prove it wrong!  If you want to show me some real-life evidence that God doesn't exist, then show me it, and I'll prove you wrong once again!  I'm not saying I can prove everything I've said.  I can simply show you fact or logic that backs my case, at least as much as your own.

   For instance, say you think the earth is 300 billion years old, like some evolutionists do((not at all saying you're an evolutionist, just for purpose of example.))  Well, then I've one question for you.  It has been proven that the sun shrinks exactly five feet every hour.  That means that one hour ago, the sun was five feet bigger.  Two hours ago it was ten feet bigger.  Add it up, and a year ago today, it was exactly 43,800 feet bigger!  Times that by just 2,000, and it's 87,600,000 feet bigger!  Times the first figure by 300 billion years, and it's 13,140,000,000,000,000 feet bigger!((in words it's 13 quadrillion, 140 trillion feet bigger!  That's about 7,300,000,000,000 Miles!  in words, that's 7 trillion, 300 million miles!)).  Just between you and me, I don't think the Earth would last a second in that heat.

   Anyways, you get the point.  If you want to debate, debate with fact and/or logic.  If you don't want to debate, don't.  No one's forcing you to.

[HeruMorna]

God once came to me in my dreams. He told me Arsenal would beat Barca in the CL Finals. He lied! What a bastard!

Since that day, I stopped believing in God and started solving Sudoku puzzles for spiritual enlightenment!

[Rita]

And how is that working for you Heru? Any sudoku miracles yet?

[numenorian]

To tell you the truth  forca barca:P

[Amroth]

God once came to me in my dreams. He told me Arsenal would beat Barca in the CL Finals. He lied! What a *******!

Since that day, I stopped believing in God and started solving Sudoku puzzles for spiritual enlightenment!

   I haven't a clue what you're talking about, Heru.  I'd thank you to refrain from cursing my God.

   If you think Sudoku is spiritual enlightenment, you need to ask yourself where it's getting you in the long run.  Sudoku doesn't get you to Heaven, God does.

[Wolfchild]

It's called telling a joke, Elohim. I understand your religion is very personal to you, but maybe you shouldn't take little comments like Heru's so seriously.

[Amroth]

  Rotfl.  Sorry, it's hard to tell online.  But I was serious about the cursing God part.

   I just heard from my pastor today that Darwin, on his deathbed, rejected and condemned evolution, and died a born-again Christian.  He said something to this sort((Can't remember the exact words.)), when spoken to about what the Bible says about Creation, and what he had always taught: "I was young, and I threw out ideas, suggestions, queries, and theories.  To my surprise, they spread like wildfire, and people took them, and turned them into a religion."  He then told the woman who was talking to him to go to his summer-house the next day, and tell everyone there about Christ, and His salvation, and then he said she was to sing hyms with those people, and "at 3:00, when this window is open, you'll hear me singing with you."  Those were the dying words of the man who started evolution.  I was wondering how a religion can live on so long when the very man who started it rejected and condemned it in the end.  Just a thought.

[HeruMorna]

And how is that working for you Heru? Any sudoku miracles yet?

Indeed. There have been a few.

To tell you the truth  forca barca:P

 

I'll have you know my title on the old MET  used to be "Real Madrid Fan". Be careful with your pro Barca comments or be ready to be wtfpwnt

I haven't a clue what you're talking about, Heru.

Im not surprised.

I'd thank you to refrain from cursing my God.

Where was I cursing YOUR god? How do you know which religion's god I spoke out against? Since your insistence that your path to God™ is the one that gets you to Heaven™, what difference does it make to you if Im "cursing" some other God?

If you think Sudoku is spiritual enlightenment, you need to ask yourself where it's getting you in the long run.  Sudoku doesn't get you to Heaven, God does.

Are you insulting my Sudoku God? Please refrain from doing so and questioning his omnipotence.

I was wondering how a religion can live on so long when the very man who started it rejected and condemned it in the end.  Just a thought.

What religion?

[Amroth]

Where was I cursing YOUR god? How do you know which religion's god I spoke out against? Since your insistence that your path to God™ is the one that gets you to Heaven™, what difference does it make to you if Im "cursing" some other God?

   HAHAHA!!!  I'm laughing my butt off at the "God™", and Heaven™, thing!!  That's hilarious!  Nice one, dude.  Sorry, I should have been more considerate.  Usually, though, people who post in a thread talking about God™,((lol.)) are taken to be refering to that same God™((also known as Elohim, Jehovah((or JHVH)), El-Shaddai, etc.))  Nice one, though.  I'll put it this way then: could you refrain from using that "choice word" you used?

   "Are you insulting my Sudoku God? Please refrain from doing so and questioning his omnipotence."

   lol.  sure.

What religion?

Evolutionism.  Darwin stated that they had turned his ideas about the way the world began into a religion((obviously, that would be evolutionism.))  And btw, it takes more faith to believe in evolution, than to believe in God™.  lol.  that "™" thing still cracks me up.