China and Russia-are these giants a threat?

[Brilthor]

Well,I come from Europe and I'll try to express my point of wiev on this matter.As we all know,Russia is not a country with a democratic tradition.I see Putin as a dictator who controls the whole country through the media,police and monopolistic companies.During the cold war Russia(USSR) wasn't strong enough to oppose the USA because of weak economic.Now this country is getting richer and richer due to its enormous resoursces.Now they can blackmail the EU by saying:"If you get us angry we won't send you oil and gas".The EU says:"It takes two sides to trade",meaning "There is nobody else to buy it".But there is.And its name is China.

I don't mind this country becoming richer because it means so many people won't be poor any more,but it also means it'll become the most powerful country in the world.Since it has a comunistic gouverment and a limited freedom of speech,this is pretty disturbing.There is also a problem with Taiwan which could cause a lot of problems with the USA.

Back to Russia.There is a problem with Kosovo to which Serbia doesn't want to give independence and Russia gives it great support.They'll put veto in the UN,so USA'll have to admitt Kosovo by itself,which would mean it goes around the UN's rules.This will give Russia one day the power to do the same.

China is a very interesting country with a lot of interesting nations in it.But still,who knows what future brings.It is getting more and more capitalistic and maybe it'll be free one day.

I know this is too long to read and perhaps boring,but I would like to hear your opinion.

[Leora]

As we all know,Russia is not a country with a democratic tradition.I see Putin as a dictator who controls the whole country through the media,police and monopolistic companies.During the cold war Russia(USSR) wasn't strong enough to oppose the USA because of weak economic.Now this country is getting richer and richer due to its enormous resoursces.Now they can blackmail the EU by saying:"If you get us angry we won't send you oil and gas".The EU says:"It takes two sides to trade",meaning "There is nobody else to buy it".But there is.And its name is China.

I don't mind this country becoming richer because it means so many people won't be poor any more,but it also means it'll become the most powerful country in the world.Since it has a comunistic gouverment and a limited freedom of speech,this is pretty disturbing.There is also a problem with Taiwan which could cause a lot of problems with the USA.

Back to Russia.There is a problem with Kosovo to which Serbia doesn't want to give independence and Russia gives it great support.They'll put veto in the UN,so USA'll have to admitt Kosovo by itself,which would mean it goes around the UN's rules.This will give Russia one day the power to do the same.

China is a very interesting country with a lot of interesting nations in it.But still,who knows what future brings.It is getting more and more capitalistic and maybe it'll be free one day.

I know this is too long to read and perhaps boring,but I would like to hear your opinion.

I don't even know what to say after "YEAH, BABY, WE'D NUKE YOU ANY DAY!"

Now, starting off with

During the cold war Russia(USSR) wasn't strong enough to oppose the USA because of weak economic.

Tell you what - we were opposing the USA very well indeed and I don't think there's any doubt a 'weak' country wouldn't hold this opposition for so long and/or even be considered a threat. Calling the USSR era economics 'weak' is hardly right. 'Peculiar', yes. However there are some things communism provided that we hadn't been able to top since it fell in 1991, and most probably will not in the upcoming years -
1) there was no unemployment.
2) Eventually, very eventually, you did get stuff. You could stand in line for 10 years, but then you'd get a flat for free. 
3) The 'ruling classes' still had some dignity
4) You were never free but from what I gather, most people in the late-USSR era were pretty happy with it. I know. I tried to convince my grandmother otherwise. It never worked.

Disclaimer - I'm not a communist Russian. We aren't all. I don't ride a bear as a form of transport or wear the ushanka-hat to save me from the -30 degrees C all year round either.

Now they can blackmail the EU by saying:"If you get us angry we won't send you oil and gas".The EU says:"It takes two sides to trade",meaning "There is nobody else to buy it"

Frankly, we still have some money to spare (we have a great load of money. Pity it never really reaches the general population) and a country without gas/oil nowadays just doesn't work (however that wouldn't be a smart move on our part, considering that we aren't the only country to possess said resources, even though we're the main exporters of gas). It's nice for a little blackmail, however.  You might be obscure to our conflicts (or they are largely mutated to represent just how bad Russia is, for you American folk) but Georgia and Ukraine, bloody USA-puppets, need a bit of cutting.

As we all know,Russia is not a country with a democratic tradition. I see Putin as a dictator who controls the whole country through the media,police and monopolistic companies.
[...] Since it has a communistic gouverment and a limited freedom of speech,this is pretty disturbing

Officially, we've been democratic for the last 16 years, sounds like a bit of time. Sure, it's not real democracy but it's been worse. 
The problem we have, our freedom of speech varies greatly. Say anything, but you better not oppose the government openly and you better not do it on TV.
Putin - I don't like him much. But many people do. But it's a Russian thing, goes like this "Well, he's not doing anything BAD. [And he's an improvement on the idiot Yeltsin, right?]". He's leaving office soon and about everyone knows who our new president will be, already. We're not democratic? I guess not. Mostly Putin is an OK guy. It's not like *he's* making the decisions.





P.S. While we're at Russia (I ignored the Chinese question on purpose - all I know is that they're taking over East Russia veeeery quickly) who'd like to have a chat with me about the so-called 'Chechnian Rebels'? More specifically, who thought of the term 'rebels' for thousand-murdering terrorists?

[chaz]

i say that russia is the biggest threat considering all the bombs they have.
buy china has alot of ppl....hmm
this could be a problem if they worked together...

ah who cares were all gona die on dec 21 2012 so who cares i got 5 years left..

[numenorian]

What i believe is that having opposing countries that are strong is great for common people like us and to tell the truth west is no better than Russia or China.Basically when power is not in ones hands is far better for the common good cause there is much more pressure.

[Brilthor]

Dear Leora,I'm not an American,so I know a little bit more about Russia.My country(Croatia) was once a part of Yugoslavia and I've lived in it for few years.The people here are also a little bit nostalgic regarding the comunistic age,because they all had jobs,the crime rate was soooo much lower and there were no people that would get rich over night.In one word,they were secured.My nation only wanted its own country(we had every rights to want it),back then all the money went to Serbia and all not-Serbs were not appreciated.We only wanted freedom and were ready to achieve it peacefully.And what did the Serbs do?They said we were "rebels" and attacked us.Hundreds of thosands were killed.That war was needless,and even though they were defeated,they didn't give up on their "Big Serbia" dream. As you know,Russia is their great friend and willing to help them every time,even regarding Kosovo matter.I'm not saying the countries that are trying to break appart from Russia(like Checnia) are using the right methods(I'm against violence in its every form),but the things aren't always as they seem.
Georgia and Ukraine are independent and they can decide for themselves,Russia doesn't need to meddle in their inner-politics.Ok,the american rocket-shield is a bit paranoic move,but Poland and Czech Republic can also decide for themselves.

p.s.Leora,can you tell me more about the Chinese on the East of Russia,I would like to hear about that.And I'm ready to debate about Checnia(I'm sure you know more on this matter,but,as I said,the things aren't always as they seem).

[Leora]

Dear Leora,I'm not an American,so I know a little bit more about Russia.My country(Croatia) was once a part of Yugoslavia and I've lived in it for few years.The people here are also a little bit nostalgic regarding the comunistic age,because they all had jobs,the crime rate was soooo much lower and there were no people that would get rich over night.In one word,they were secured.My nation only wanted its own country(we had every rights to want it),back then all the money went to Serbia and all not-Serbs were not appreciated.We only wanted freedom and were ready to achieve it peacefully.And what did the Serbs do?They said we were "rebels" and attacked us.Hundreds of thosands were killed.That war was needless,and even though they were defeated,they didn't give up on their "Big Serbia" dream. As you know,Russia is their great friend and willing to help them every time,even regarding Kosovo matter.I'm not saying the countries that are trying to break appart from Russia(like Checnia) are using the right methods(I'm against violence in its every form),but the things aren't always as they seem.
Georgia and Ukraine are independent and they can decide for themselves,Russia doesn't need to meddle in their inner-politics.Ok,the american rocket-shield is a bit paranoic move,but Poland and Czech Republic can also decide for themselves.

p.s.Leora,can you tell me more about the Chinese on the East of Russia,I would like to hear about that.And I'm ready to debate about Checnia(I'm sure you know more on this matter,but,as I said,the things aren't always as they seem).

Sorry, mate, didn't mean to use the 'American folk' thing after I read you're European - it's a bit of an instinct.

I also wouldn't want to go into the Yugoslavian question - You're Croatian, my boyfriend's a Serb, I'm biased, we all know how that works.

I'm not saying the countries that are trying to break appart from Russia(like Checnia) are using the right methods(I'm against violence in its every form),but the things aren't always as they seem.

Checnia isn't a 'country trying to break apart from Russia', it's a respublika, official part of the Russian Federation.
Being openminded, I see exactly what Russia as a whole needs to keep Checnia attached to us for - gas and oil. Who doesn't want that? Look at Bush - he left the continent to get the resources. We're just keeping within the borders of our own country, however. We could wipe them off the face of the Earth and all in all, the world community shouldn't give a damn. Shouldn't.
Do I think that someone really cares, though? Not really. But I guess it's nice to support something that opposes Russia, for once.
I wouldn't care much if Checnia became independent, either. Finally our soldiers wouldn't have to suffer there, for reasons no one can really formulate.
Except one, that I have mentioned before - they kill people. Not everyone. I'm not *that* ignorant. Except this 'Chechnian Rebels' nickname the ever-right world community gave them drives me up the wall. At 9/11 I could flip through 10 TV channels and wonder why the same action flick was on each one. When entire buildings explode and fall down in Moscow, though, when explosions happen in the middle of the streets, when metro stations and wagons blow up, when audiences of shows are held captive for days, when school kids are shot on their first day at school (I know you heard of Beslan, it actually caught the attention that was due) - that's an act of 'rebellion'?
"Oh, it's nothing serious - just Russians  and their 'rebels'"?


!?

Leora,can you tell me more about the Chinese on the East of Russia,I would like to hear about that.

Chinese on the East of Russia - that's just a bit stupid of us. Chinese = many, Russians = not enough. And not enough at all to look after our border well. So that's what happens when there's one soldier/10 km of borderline with China. You get the point, I'm sure. (I do pity the tigers, however, and the other Red Book animals that the Chinese take the liberty of killing on our territory. So very not nice of them). But all in all, wait a few more years and half of Russia might as well, 'suddenly' become Chinese territory. No duh Putin wants us to make more kids - fill the territory, damnit.

i say that russia is the biggest threat considering all the bombs they have.

Uh.. pardon me? That sounds almost like we're the only country to have bombs. And like we're the most likely to press certain buttons in a drunk stuppor. Not really.
 Really, it only takes a few bombs to blow this planet to bits - after that the amount of bombs is just a number.. it makes no difference.

ah who cares were all gona die on dec 21 2012 so who cares i got 5 years left..

That's December 12th, dear.

[numenorian]

Brithor may i ask you since you are from Croatia?Do you believe that the Croatians decided to break from Yugoslavia or it was the Germans that helped the situation there?cause thats the reason we have here in greece thats why i am asking and since you live there and you will definetely know more.
Sorry for getting out of topic guys.

[Brilthor]

I know that today every country looks at its own interests,and I understand Russia wants oil and gas.But can you tell me something?Is there a reason why Checnia wants to break apart?Why Checnia?Why not some other part of Russian Federation?After all,Russia is HUGE.
I agree with that what you said about the 11.09.It's a total hypocricy.People die every day in Africa,Asia from hunger and wars,in Russia from all the things you mentioned.I'm not saying that 11.09. wasn't shocking and a big tragedy,but it got way more publicity than other tragedies in the world.It's like it seems that one American life is worth more than millions of other lives in the rest of the world.And their problems are always more important.

Numenorian,I've opened a "Russia-China" theme here,and it would be great we stay within its borders.But,if you want to know more about the war in Yugoslavia,I'll open another theme in the "Debating Society".See you there.

[chaz]

That's December 12th, dear.

acually everyone is predicting dec 21

December 21 — The Mesoamerican Long Count calendar, notably used by the Maya civilization among others of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, completes its thirteenth b'ak'tun cycle since the calendar's mythical starting point (equivalent to 3114 BC August 11 in the proleptic Gregorian calendar, according to the "GMT-correlation" JDN= 584283).[1] The Long Count b'ak'tun date of this starting point (13.0.0.0.0) is repeated, for the first time in a span of approximately 5,125 solar years. The significance of this period-ending to the pre-Columbian Maya themselves is unclear, and there is an incomplete inscription (Tortuguero Stela 6) that records this date. It is also to be found carved on the walls of the Temple of Inscriptions in Palenque, where it functions as a base date from which other dates are computed.[2] However, it is conjectured that this may represent in the Maya belief system a transition from the current Creation world into the next. The December solstice for 2012 also occurs on this day.

on this thread's note

Uh.. pardon me? That sounds almost like we're the only country to have bombs. And like we're the most likely to press certain buttons in a drunk stuppor. Not really.
 Really, it only takes a few bombs to blow this planet to bits - after that the amount of bombs is just a number.. it makes no difference.

That may be true but thats not what i was referring to.
the average person barely knows anything about foreign countries. i don't no to much about China but i no some history with Russia, mostly military stuff but i no some history.

[Brilthor]

Aaaahhh,chaz,come on...mayas may have been an advanced civilization,but that doesn't mean all they said was true.
Here in Croatia we learn about history of many other countries,like the USA,Russia,China,Germany,Italy,UK,Spain,even Sweden,Norway,Poland,etc. We have learned about Mayas,Incas and Aztecs,too.Do you know they sacrified their people for their gods?

[chaz]

yes and it wasn't just humans they sacrificed humans animals and food

[Beren One-Hand]

Personally, I'm not too worried about Russia.  In the West we get a lot of negative propaganda about them, but as someone who has travelled there, don't believe everything you hear on CNN.

China has so much potential, and it is true their economy is thriving, but unless they tailor their stance of human rights issues, and get rid of communism, they will be held back from being the super power they could be.  With more than a billion people, China could be so much more.  They simply need a new system of government, and then the US would have a serious rival to contend with.  In this example I am talking more about the economic side of China as a superpower. 

Militarily, China should also be reckoned with, but would be nothing to worry about if they changed their stance on human rights, and tossed communism.  Some say they pose a nuclear threat.  Personally I'd be more worried about Iran.  China's smarter than Iran in that respect.

[Pulsifer]

I'm with Beren and Leora on this one; to global peace, Russia is chiefly well-intended. (Though I wish you'd stop posting panzer practice 50km off the Norwegian border, Leora - *poke*) I really wish we could get our Ainulindalë to voice up on the China issue, though, as she's been there for a month and a half now and should have some fresh insight into the situation.

[HeruMorna]

China is India'd biggest threat and competitor towards local hegemony in Asia. Plus, they helped arm Pakistan with nukes. I say screw 'em.

Seriously though, even beyond human rights violations which practically every country indulges in these days, China's systematic annihilation of Tibetan culture, people and autonomy is something that I find deeply distressing.

As for American paranoia with 'upcoming superpowers', ph34r India! We can cripple your nation by freezing your customer service, banking, financial and medical processes!

[Insane_Monky]

ph34r India!

Dang Heru, I'm already shaking in my boots! 
Haha.