Evolution vs. Creation

[Arthfael]

    I just heard from my pastor today that Darwin, on his deathbed, rejected and condemned evolution, and died a born-again Christian.

Not do discredit your pastor by any means Amroth, but objectivity and history don't mix. Find a credible source(s) and give this some weight, because as is it's nothing but a hollow steaming pile.

[Andúnië]

"Crediting" is the wrong word.  The belief of/in evolution, and especially the fact that when asked of religion, many say "evolutionist," is what makes it a religion.  Not to mention, it is very inconsistent, and thus must be "believed."

Evolution is not a religion; it's not even a belief. It is a proven scientific idea- one that is based on mountains of evidence. The theory of evolution was created using logic, hard data, and scientific reasoning. Now, I understand that when dealing with such ideas as evolutionism there is no here-and-now physical information to refer to, but neither do the views of most religions, whose idea of existance is formed on beliefs passed down through centuries by word of mouth.

[Amroth]

   What evidence???  The stupid jawbone of Lucy the ape, they thought was a monkey-woman???  The rocks they dig up, take one look at them and call them prehistorical???  Could you please show me this logic, factual proof of evolution?  Or even some reason why you believe it?  Can you tell me how this earth may have lasted half as long as "scientists" say it did, when the sun would have been five feet bigger for every hour you go back???  All I want is the answer to one question: What do you base your belief in evolution upon?  Is it that scientists told you?  Is it that you read the newspaper, watched NOVA, or picked up an issue of National Geographic?  Or is it because you have read, seen, or heard things that you pieced together to make a logical conclusion about evolution?  Just answer that.

[Wolfchild]

Please don't dismiss fossil evidence as nothing, Amroth. Scientists can date these things rather accurately to a time before man, and the jawbone of Lucy the ape was done in a similar fashion- I think it is called carbon dating, and from that we have actual hold-it-in-your-hand evidence that we evolved from something much more primitive. I'll tell you why I believe it, it's because scientists can test it and prove it is from the time they say it is, and the fact that they can find these things in the first place has to show you something. Are you trying to say we can't trust these people, or the general news on these studies and pieces of information and proven evidence? Guess what, it's because of these things that I see, hear and read that I do make logical conclusions. Now, let me ask you this- can you carbon date the Bible?

[Gliowien]

Just wanted to throw in the quote from the Peaceful Debate About Religion topic that started the evolution/creation discussion:

   
I just heard from my pastor today that Darwin, on his deathbed, rejected and condemned evolution, and died a born-again Christian.  He said something to this sort((Can't remember the exact words.)), when spoken to about what the Bible says about Creation, and what he had always taught: "I was young, and I threw out ideas, suggestions, queries, and theories.  To my surprise, they spread like wildfire, and people took them, and turned them into a religion."  He then told the woman who was talking to him to go to his summer-house the next day, and tell everyone there about Christ, and His salvation, and then he said she was to sing hyms with those people, and "at 3:00, when this window is open, you'll hear me singing with you."  Those were the dying words of the man who started evolution.  I was wondering how a religion can live on so long when the very man who started it rejected and condemned it in the end.  Just a thought.

Continue...

[Mithrandir]

Before I will elaborate my point of view, I would like to strongly emphasize this:

Evolution is not a religion; it's not even a belief. It is a proven scientific idea- one that is based on mountains of evidence. The theory of evolution was created using logic, hard data, and scientific reasoning.

The Theory of Evolution is not a religion in any way. Neither are (for example) the Laws of Newton, even though you don't question them.

What evidence??? The stupid jawbone of Lucy the ape, they thought was a monkey-woman??? The rocks they dig up, take one look at them and call them prehistorical??? Could you please show me this logic, factual proof of evolution?

Evidence is provided in a lot of scientifical articles and (what's easier to get to) in newspapers (on occasion) and on a huge number of websites. If you use google, you will be able to find your requested evidence. Whether to believe this evidence or not is up to you, but simply ignoring the fact that a fossile (dated with carbon-dating) is in no way as old as they say, is also ignoring various other theories concerning atoms and ions.

Or even some reason why you believe it?

The reason I believe the theory of evolution is that all the evidence and everything I've read adds up to the fact that evolution is highly possible. When two independent institutes date the same sample and they come with the same age, I find it highly credible. Certainly since I'm familiar with the way they measure the age. When they show a line of fossils in chronological order, it appears to me as logical that evolution happened (and still happens). Even more simple: what about the vestigial organs? Why do ostriches have wings? Logic tells me that they were able to fly in the past. To me, it's all logic. Look at the theory with an open mind and it's hard to deny it then.

Can you tell me how this earth may have lasted half as long as "scientists" say it did, when the sun would have been five feet bigger for every hour you go back???

Actually, the sun was smaller, billions of years back... It will still lasts millions of years until it will be a danger for our earth. Before you start crying for evidence: the study of stars gives the scientists a good idea what our sun will do in time. Next to that: they can calculate the time that is left by analysing the contents of the sun.

I just heard from my pastor today that Darwin, on his deathbed, rejected and condemned evolution, and died a born-again Christian. He said something to this sort((Can't remember the exact words.)), when spoken to about what the Bible says about Creation, and what he had always taught: "I was young, and I threw out ideas, suggestions, queries, and theories. To my surprise, they spread like wildfire, and people took them, and turned them into a religion." He then told the woman who was talking to him to go to his summer-house the next day, and tell everyone there about Christ, and His salvation, and then he said she was to sing hyms with those people, and "at 3:00, when this window is open, you'll hear me singing with you." Those were the dying words of the man who started evolution. I was wondering how a religion can live on so long when the very man who started it rejected and condemned it in the end. Just a thought.

This story is an urban legend. Darwin's family even denied that Elizabeth Hope (who told the story) was near his deathbed at all. This was written in an article by Darwin's daughter:
"I was present at his deathbed, Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A. ... ...The whole story has no foundation whatever."

Let me, in turn, ask you a question: why are you reasons to believe in creation?

Edit: And what is the main reason why you deny all evidence for evolution? Is it because you think the evidence is not good enough or flawed or is it because it cannot be unified with your belief?

[Gil Galad]

There is no TRUE evidence for evolution, once again i do not have time to go into detail but all of the supposed ''evidence" for evolution is really just evidence to the belief in a Divine Creator

[Wolfchild]

Two words: Prove it.

As far as I'm concerned, evolution has about as much TRUE evidence as it can possibly want or need. So please, have the time to "go into detail" and tell us why it just points evidence to the 'Divine Creator'. Look at Mithrandir's last post- that is about proving a point, whereas what you are saying answers nothing.

[Amroth]

   Wolf, as for the jawbone of Lucy, I referred to the wrong thing.  The jawbone of Lucy is a thing I know little about.  Just a bit from watching a movie.  I meant to refer to a different instance in which a man's skeleton was discovered, and scientists claimed that it was an ape-man's because it was very bent over, but many of those scientists backed out on there claims, when it was found that it was actually the skeleton of a man with arthritis.  I'll have to look up on this later.

   There are many reasons I believe the Bible, and here are just a couple:  1.) The Bible contains 66 books.  Each books is exactly cooperative((for lack of a better word.)) with every single one of the others.  Every book of the Old Testament that had prophecy concerning Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and second coming are perfectly fulfilled in the New Testament.  There is not a single word that contradicts another!  2.)  The Bible is massive.  Thousands of names, stories, prophecies of our future, and prophecies fulfilled are contained within it.  NOT EVEN TOLKIEN COULD WRITE A BOOK THAT DETAILED OR ACCURATE!  The Bible is accurate, historically, as well as morally((In that it provides for a much better way of living.))  3.) Because I can feel the Holy Spirit working in me each and every day.  4.) Because the Bible((unlike evolution)) provides for a better way of life, a hope of eternal joy, and a Comforter on this earth!  Evolution tells me I was once nothing, then organic soup, then bacteria, fish, and monkeys, till I'm finally me!  It tells me I'm going to die, and enter a void!  What fun!

   "The Theory of Evolution is not a religion in any way. Neither are (for example) the Laws of Newton, even though you don't question them."

   Whatever, dude.  You do your thing I'll do mine.

   "Evidence is provided in a lot of scientifical articles and (what's easier to get to) in newspapers (on occasion) and on a huge number of websites. If you use google, you will be able to find your requested evidence. Whether to believe this evidence or not is up to you, but simply ignoring the fact that a fossile (dated with carbon-dating) is in no way as old as they say, is also ignoring various other theories concerning atoms and ions."

   Evidence of the Bible is provided in a lot of scientifical articles, newspapers, and on a huge number of websites as well: I believe a book that is completely infalliable, has never been changed except by accidental mistranslations and such, does not contradict itself, nor have those who penned it ever went back on it.  Evolution, however, is constantly being changed, over and over.  I don't even know what they say is the "exact" date of the earth, because it went from millions, to hundreds of millions, to billions, to hundreds of billions!  Many "discoveries" have been proven wrong, and in many more those that "discovered" these things, later went back on them!  Many of your "scientific" arguements contradict each other, as well as nature itself!  You still haven't explained how the sun could be "much smaller" four hundred billion years ago, when it shrinks five feet per hour!

   I don't know how scientists date things, and I don't know how they erred, or lied to the entire world, I simply believe that in some way they did.  Just like, many on this site believe that George Bush lied to us about WMD, while they can't explain how, and others believe that he did it unintentionally, and yet others believe that Saddam moved the WMD out before we got there!

   "This story is an urban legend. Darwin's family even denied that Elizabeth Hope (who told the story) was near his deathbed at all. This was written in an article by Darwin's daughter:
"I was present at his deathbed, Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A. ... ...The whole story has no foundation whatever."

   Then, each of us are believing the word of people we have never met, and neither of us can prove our opinions.

   "Let me, in turn, ask you a question: why are you reasons to believe in creation?

Edit: And what is the main reason why you deny all evidence for evolution? Is it because you think the evidence is not good enough or flawed or is it because it cannot be unified with your belief?"

   I already stated my opinions about my belief's and plenty about why I don't believe in evolution.

[Mithrandir]

   There are many reasons I believe the Bible, and here are just a couple:  1.) The Bible contains 66 books.  Each books is exactly cooperative((for lack of a better word.)) with every single one of the others.  Every book of the Old Testament that had prophecy concerning Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and second coming are perfectly fulfilled in the New Testament.  There is not a single word that contradicts another!  2.)  The Bible is massive.  Thousands of names, stories, prophecies of our future, and prophecies fulfilled are contained within it.  NOT EVEN TOLKIEN COULD WRITE A BOOK THAT DETAILED OR ACCURATE!  The Bible is accurate, historically, as well as morally((In that it provides for a much better way of living.)) 

If you really think the Bible is 100% accurate without mistakes and infallible, please take a look at this website:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
Could you explain that to me? You clearly want to believe that the Bible is 100% correct, but can you see my point about logic? I truly find it unbelievable that one can say that a book is 100% accurate while it is contradicting itself, even though you claim it isn't.

3.) Because I can feel the Holy Spirit working in me each and every day.

Well, that is a reason that I can understand. I do not necessarily agree, but if you truly feel the Holy Spirit working in you, I can imagine that you believe the Bible is true.

4.) Because the Bible((unlike evolution)) provides for a better way of life, a hope of eternal joy, and a Comforter on this earth!  Evolution tells me I was once nothing, then organic soup, then bacteria, fish, and monkeys, till I'm finally me!  It tells me I'm going to die, and enter a void!  What fun!

And this is not an argument at all. Objects do fall due to gravity, though it would be more harmonious if they would just stay in the position they were. Therefore, I do not believe Newton and his theory. That is simply ignoring all evidence.

Next to that: how can you question a theory you barely even know? Humans didn't descend from monkeys, according to the theory of evolution... Please get your facts straight.

Evidence of the Bible is provided in a lot of scientifical articles, newspapers, and on a huge number of websites as well

I'm terrible sorry, but I clearly missed all that evidence. Do you have some concrete examples? I actually never read an article with some proof that it is possible to create the earth and its surroundings and inhabitants in a couple of days. Neither have I seen proof that a man can resurrect from death. And those are quite critical points when it comes to proving the Bible to be correct.

Evolution, however, is constantly being changed, over and over.  I don't even know what they say is the "exact" date of the earth, because it went from millions, to hundreds of millions, to billions, to hundreds of billions!  Many "discoveries" have been proven wrong, and in many more those that "discovered" these things, later went back on them!  Many of your "scientific" arguements contradict each other, as well as nature itself!  You still haven't explained how the sun could be "much smaller" four hundred billion years ago, when it shrinks five feet per hour!

Not a single theory was or is 100% correct in the first instance. Proof is gathered and the theory is being changed. That's the normal way when making theories. Things that are proven to be incorrect are changed. Logical to me. There's no proof at all that a sea can be divided, but that part is still in the Bible. Why? Because, apparently, it happened. Did it happen? I don't know, I haven't seen any evidence for it, neither do I know anyone who has any evidence for that. For that reason and for the fact that I find it very hard to imagine that it is possible, I don't believe it.

And again: the sun is not shrinking, it's growing...

I don't know how scientists date things, and I don't know how they erred, or lied to the entire world, I simply believe that in some way they did.

How can two people who never met eachother or talked to eachother tell exactly the same 'lie'? And not on one occasion, but on many occasions.

Then, each of us are believing the word of people we have never met, and neither of us can prove our opinions.

You're right, I cannot prove it, but I find it much easier to believe the words of the family Darwin (seeing the fact that they probably were at the deathbed of Charles Darwin).

I already stated my opinions about my belief's and plenty about why I don't believe in evolution.

So may I conclude you do not believe evolution because it cannot be unified with your personal beliefs, no matter how strong the evidence is.

[Andúnië]

I don't know how scientists date things, and I don't know how they erred, or lied to the entire world, I simply believe that in some way they did.

Well, then, how can you doubt something that you don't know much about? Scientists are scientists, not politicians, and they generally do not present false information. [Carbon dating, by the way, is done by measuring the decay of atomic isotopes, and and comparing them with the known rate of decay to determine the age of something.]

...about why I don't believe in evolution.

One doesn't believe in evolution; it is not a religion.

4.) Because the Bible((unlike evolution)) provides for a better way of life, a hope of eternal joy, and a Comforter on this earth!  Evolution tells me I was once nothing, then organic soup, then bacteria, fish, and monkeys, till I'm finally me!  It tells me I'm going to die, and enter a void!  What fun!

There is nothing wrong with believing what might happen to you after death, but this has absolutely nothing to do with evolution! [And yes, as Mithrandir mentioned, we did not evolve from monkeys.] Evolution is hard fact. Organisms form, live, and die. Believe what you wish, but dead is dead.

Evidence of the Bible is provided in a lot of scientifical articles, newspapers, and on a huge number of websites as well: I believe a book that is completely infalliable, has never been changed except by accidental mistranslations and such, does not contradict itself, nor have those who penned it ever went back on it. 

I have seen several articles and (television) programs that explore the events of the Bible and relate them to real-life happenings in history, but realize that the Bible was probably the writers' interpretation of what really happened. There really were several abnormal climatic conditions during that period that could have been the source.

Evolution, however, is constantly being changed, over and over.  I don't even know what they say is the "exact" date of the earth, because it went from millions, to hundreds of millions, to billions, to hundreds of billions!  Many "discoveries" have been proven wrong, and in many more those that "discovered" these things, later went back on them!

Scientific theories are changed due to the discovery of new information. End of story.

You still haven't explained how the sun could be "much smaller" four hundred billion years ago, when it shrinks five feet per hour!

Cite.

[Insane_Monky]

     After a quick look at Mthrandir's website link, I was shocked that anyone would even post that, there were many mistakes, i.e. "On the third day" was meant to be the third day of the week (as far as my knowledge goes) not the third days since Jesus had persihed. The the whole "Who was Joseph's father?" I believe it referred to Heli beimng Josephs ancestors not his actual father. Plus it goes on to say that God the father is Jesus' true father, if you further read the book of Mathew.

     Also, please note that all of the gospels were, in fact written by different disciples (hint: THE NAMES) so, slight differences like in one book one guy went and it's not mentioned that the other guy went, and in another book it's vis- versa, it doesn't mean they both weren't there. Please take no offence because I understand that, that research (whoever did it) must have taken awhile, but I'm just saying, The Bible really, truly does make sense.
-Monky

[Amroth]

   "God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

   I don't have much time so I can only correct a few.  This one can easily be disproven by a quote from Job.

   "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord."

   A Just God punishes those who continuously sin, and torment others.  Jeremiah was one of the books of prophecy that declares God's judgement on rebellious, and ignorant nations.

   "Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."

   I agree with IM: Not only could Luke have been speaking of ancestry and not parentry, but also, if you would take a close look, you'll see that Luke calls Matthan((named in Matthew 1:15 I believe.)) Matthat.  Names differ according to each Disciple.

   "Next to that: how can you question a theory you barely even know? Humans didn't descend from monkeys, according to the theory of evolution... Please get your facts straight."

   Then could you please inform me what the heck evolutionists do believe?  Because over all these changes that they make in their beliefs, I don't see how one evolutionist could possibly agrtee with another!

   "I'm terrible sorry, but I clearly missed all that evidence. Do you have some concrete examples? I actually never read an article with some proof that it is possible to create the earth and its surroundings and inhabitants in a couple of days. Neither have I seen proof that a man can resurrect from death. And those are quite critical points when it comes to proving the Bible to be correct."

   Nor have I read any article that proves that nothing can "explode" into something.  Can you tell me how nothing((I'm assuming this refers to a vacuum)) can explode?  As far as I know, nothing((again a vacuum,)) implodes, and only when it has an object of matter about it.  I have never read an article that has shown solid proof that any one thing can change into another.  Neither I, nor any other person in the history of this earth has ever seen something in the proccess of evolution.

   "And again: the sun is not shrinking, it's growing..."

   Could you tell me how the heck the sun can grow when it is burning whatever fuels it?  Can a fire continue to grow larger when the substance it is burning is nothing but ash???  No, the fire decreases, until it is gone.

   "How can two people who never met eachother or talked to eachother tell exactly the same 'lie'? And not on one occasion, but on many occasions."

   I already said I don't know how they came to the results they did, and I can't disprove everything they said, nor can I prove everything I say, so I'll leave it at that.

   "One doesn't believe in evolution; it is not a religion."

   Now that's just ignorant.  Newton's Laws of Gravity are believed in, that doesn't make them a religion.  Things can be believed in, without making them a religion.  Yes, one does believe in evolution.  You can't believe on it!

   "I have seen several articles and (television) programs that explore the events of the Bible and relate them to real-life happenings in history, but realize that the Bible was probably the writers' interpretation of what really happened. There really were several abnormal climatic conditions during that period that could have been the source."

   I have seen articles like these as well.  That doesn't mean that what they say is true, and definitely doesn't mean that what they say is what I believe.  In fact most of those shows quote from twisted versions of God's Word, such as NIV.  I assume that your post is attacking the plenary verbal inspirationn of the Bible, so I will answer with this quote:

   The Bible must be the invention of good men or angels, bad men or devils, or of God.
1.) It could not be the invention of good men or angels; for they neither would nor could make a book, and tell lies all the time they were writing it, saying "Thus saith the Lord," when it was their own invention.
2.) It could not be the invention of bad men or devils; for they would not make a book which commands all duty, forbids all sin, and condemns their souls to hell to all eternity.
3.) Therefore, I draw this conclusion, that the Bible must be given by divine inspiration.                    ~John Wesley

   "Cite."

    I don't know.  I read it in a school-book in like eighth grade, or something.  I looked it up on Wikipedia, but they just say a bunch of crap about how in 4-5 billion years it will burn up or something.  I rest my case on this, as I'm not sure what I believe about it.

[Gil Galad]

Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

This is simple and like Amroth, i havent much time but i will do my best with my time, these dont contradict, each disciple may have known something or gone into more detailed, there is no contradiction here, just one author spplying more information

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

they missed a key word after the word God in the Gen 2:19 verse, "had" its in the past, the word says that God hadmade the beasts, etc, therefore there is no contradiction
this is all i have time for now i shall be back for more later, thank you for your questions as they help you and me

[Andúnië]

Could you tell me how the heck the sun can grow when it is burning whatever fuels it?  Can a fire continue to grow larger when the substance it is burning is nothing but ash???  No, the fire decreases, until it is gone.

Perhaps we are arguing volume and mass here. Throughout its life, a star begins at a perfectly normal size, gradually cooling and swelling in size, going from white, to yellow, to orange, and finally to the red giant stage, where it is very old. Then it either A)Is a particularly large star and therefore collapses, forming a black hole; or B)Shrinks to become a very tiny and cold star, a blue dwarf.

But back to business.

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Now, really. Believing in creation is believing that homo sapiens is superior too every other species? Have humans really become that arrogant?