Homosexual Marriage

[LOTRfan1414]

WARNING TOUCHY SUBJECT!!!

Do you think that Homosexuals should be allowed to marry? Do you think it is right? I will enter my opinion later in the discussion, and please be respectful of everybodies opinions.

[numenorian]

I dont have anything against homosexuals,everyone is free to do what he wants.But I believe they shouldn't be married and definetely its not religion matters.Hm.. i don't know why i can't imagine it is not sth bad the marriage between them but in my mind its really weird.I m tottaly opposed to adoption though by homosexuals.

[Zaku]

Yes, in a civil way, not religious. To recieve the same rights as married couples.
And they should be able to adopt.

[numenorian]

I disagree with adopt and ill tell you why.Imagine this couple having a little child without real father or mother and of course not living in the natural family that we all now (father,mother,children).I don't say that homosexuals don't have feelings or that they re bad guys or that they have done sth wrong but it's not natural for a kid to raise with 2 homosexuals it's not natural from  nature itself.Also think homosexuals re definetely not a role model for a kid because later it might decide to follow his parents path.Concluding in order to avoid misunderstanding i want to say i don't have anything against homosexuals its not their fault that they were born homosexuals.

[Zaku]

Yeah, but A. some of those kids wouldn't even be adopted anyways B. I don't think that anything bad would happen to the kids from being raised in a homosexual household. No major changes, anyways.

[LOTRfan1414]

I believe that homosexual marriage is wrong. I believe that it is not the way god intended things to be, and is a sin against god. But since we live in a free world, where we can do whatever we want without hurting anyone, (excluding God), they should be able to get married. If we say we want a free world, and ten we stop people from what makes them happy, again excluding people who do harm, then we are hypocrites.

[Beren One-Hand]

FAN: let me comment on what you said.  First, I agree with the first part of what you said: "I believe that homosexual marriage is wrong. I believe that it is not the way god intended things to be, and is a sin against god."

I believe that marriage is a holy institution that God ordained for a man and a woman.  But, if you look at the numerous sins listed in the Bible, or just use common sense as to what is right and wrong, homosexuality is one among many sins.  Everyone sins from time to time and makes mistakes, that's human nature.  But someone who is say an adulterer or a theif or a murderer, should not think they are any better than the homosexual.  God can help and save anyone who calls on His name and who will life for Him.

On a similar note, homosexuals are people, citizens who deserve the same political rights as everyone else.  And they also deserve respect, not for being homosexual, but for being people and citizens.  I believe homosexuals should have the same rights as a straight common-law couple (which in many western countries is 99.9% the same as straight married couples). 

FAN: I disagree with the second part of what you said: "But since we live in a free world, where we can do whatever we want without hurting anyone, (excluding God), they should be able to get married. If we say we want a free world, and ten we stop people from what makes them happy, again excluding people who do harm, then we are hypocrites."

I have no problem with religious freedoms, political rights, etc.  But whether you are religious or not, straying away from certain key moral principles or Natural Law, traditional morality, etc. is another matter.  C.S. Lewis said that traditional morality "is the source of all value judgements."  (Abolition of Man, p.415)  All of the major world religions will agree on certain moral principles - and generally agree on the "homosexual marriage issue" - i.e. that they should not be allowed to marry.  And if one is a true Christian, they will not be afraid to offend - when something is contrary to God's word (Christians must always act in a respecful way, even when they disagree).  Because the very word of God - the Bible - suggests this: "For the word of God is living and active.  Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."  (Hebrews 4:12)  And being a Christian in a vastly secular western world, makes me feel like an "alien and stranger" at times.  We can disagree with the "sin," but still respect and love the individual - who is not beyond God's help.  And I am not a hypocrite.  A hypocrtie says on thing, and does another.  I am consistent in what I say and do.  I am not perfect, but strive to obey God's commands, and live for Him only.

Homosexuals should only be excluded from marriage (and adoption of children), bottom line. 

[LOTRfan1414]

What does one of the first line of the Declaration of Independance state? "We holdthese truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalieable rights, those among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiess. "
Now one of these rights god has given us, is the right to choose. People have a right to choose between right and wrong. God does not force us to do anthing, so why should we make the choice for them? Who are we to choose for them?
You said that gay people should enjoy the same rights as any citizen, and according to the Constitution, that you use to protect your own rights to religion, they have a right to be happy.  Since people are born gay, what makes them happy? A lot of them do want to be married, and why should we be able to deny their unalieable rights? If most of the population was Muslim, and they thought your way, couldn't they ban worshipping Jesus? They coulds say it is against god, and not what he intended. That example is a bit extreme, but you must thaty other people have other point of views. Not everything is black and white.

[Zaku]

I agree, morals should involve the avoidance of harming others or opressing them, and homosexual marriage would not harm anyone (despite what some crazy evangelical analysts would tell you  )

[Beren One-Hand]

You guy's are entitled to your opinion.  But I believe there is a differance between religious and cultural rights, versus moral rights.  I believe that there has always been some form of Natural Law - traditional morality, inherent in many societies throughout history, and also within many people, throughout history and even now.  People, generally speaking know right from wrong.  Some are just afraid to speak out about it, and would rather "get along" and go with the "status quo," than be labelled intolerant, etc.  Personally, I don't care if people think that - it goes with the territory.

Born gay?  Has that been proven?  That too is open for debate.  Most people are gay because of sociological reasons, rather than biological.  Though the biological theory is possible, but not proven.

[LOTRfan1414]

No, it is not scientific fact, but it has been proven that there is a gene for sexual orientation. (According to my old bio eacher.) And remember, i agree with you that it is against the natural law, and I do not go along with people when i no what they're doing is wrong, But you must realize that people have different views than you. Let me put it this way, If you want to ban homosexualaty because it is against our religion, why not ban Jews because not believing in Jesus is against our religion too?

[Beren One-Hand]

I am well aware of other's views - look at my comments in the Creation/Evolution debate.  And as I said, I agree to disagree.  But as you are entitled to your opinion on tolerance, I am also entitled my my opinion on homosexuality.  I'm not talking about banning homosexuality - that is impossible.  That's like saying someone could ban murder or stealing or lust.  It will never happen.  As I said homosexuality is a sin among many, and I disagree - because of my faith, in homosexual marriage.  You'd be surprised how wide ranging my personal friend's and aquantances are.  I have even shared my faith with homosexuals as well.  One must agree to disagree.  Respecting one's "rights" doesn't mean agreeing with them.  To believe that homosexuals should be allowed to marry is a sacrelig to marriage.  But to each their own.  One should not "sell out" or compromise just to accomodate and be deemed as tolerant.  Because as Christians, we need not care what the world says about such things as morality, we need only care about what God says.

[LOTRfan1414]

As i have said before, I agree with you, Homosexuality is a sin against God, but the point i am making, they have a right to marry. Its not for us to decide what they do with their life.

[Alcarinquë]

Homosexuals should be able to get married in a civil way (through the government) so they have the same rights as married heterosexuals.

Obviously they won't get married through a church because churches don't have to let them.

Homosexuals should be able to adopt children unless the child does not want to be placed in their care.

I should rule the world, then everything would be perfect.

[Beren One-Hand]

Alcarinquë: how many children have a choice when it comes to adoption?  Infants obviously don't, and most kids that are adopted are in that category.  Even the older kids probably would not have a choice.  Kids that come from either broken homes/foster homes or even from the street might take whatever they can get, even if it means having two dads.  I'd pitty any kid that has to grow up in that situation.  Elementary kids can be quite mean sometimes - taking shots at one's appearance, last name, etc.  They would have a hayday with a kid with two gay parent's.

"I should rule the world, then everything would be perfect."  I know you're being sarcastic, but people will never all agree when it comes to these kind of debates.