Homosexual Marriage

[Wolfchild]

If we are living in a society where we have to conform to the standards of what bullies want now, Beren, then surely that should hold a seperate debate entirely? And another thing- what kid would ever talk about his parents to people like that anyway? I've had my share of bullies in my time, but the last thing they know abut is my personal life. Also, I don't think we are not seeing it from the child's point of view- maybe he/she is happy to have two people who care about having a child so much that they decided to adopt him/her in the first place? Why would he pity the support of his adoptees, unless he was being brainwashed by these bullies at the same time? We have to give children some credit- they have more willpower than that.

[Beren One-Hand]

Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder Wolfchild.  Re-read what I have said.  The last thing I am doing is supporting bullies.  BTW, you were the one that mentioned "bullying."  I'm just saying that sometimes the reality of life hurts - in the case of a kid who would make fun of another kid with two "dad's."  The truth of morality often hurts too.  And what is surfacing when a kid makes fun of another kid for having gay parent's is a simple manifestation of Natural Law - which most people have, whether they'd admit to it or not.  If kids only had the tact that adults are supposed to have, that would also be another story.  Even though I have my opinion on this subject, I would not teach my own kids to make fun of kids with gay parent's.  I just think that kids being raised in such homes aren't being given a fair chance to see how family is supposed to be.  Regardless of what anyone says, it takes a man and woman to make a baby - that is the natural way.  Parents should equal husband and wife - not the opposite.  Anything else is going against the grain.  Homosexuality is a perversion of what God intended - but is a sin among many.

Kids probably wouldn't talk to other kids about their parents regardless.  Things like that get found out naturally - i.e. the two "dad's" pick up Bobby from school.  And of course I don't claim to know anything about your personal life, nor do I care.

[numenorian]

I tottaly agree with u Beren!

[Beren One-Hand]

numenorian: thanks for the support  ;D.  I hold Numenorian's in the highest regard.

[Andúnië]

It is true that if our far, far, distant ancestors were homosexual, we as a species wouldn't even exist. However, the presence of this characteristic is still naturally occurring. There are supposed genetic factors that determine sexual orientation, and the people who are different from norm, are. We can't say, "Oh, this person is abnormal, that's a sin." For instance, some people have mental illnesses. They can't be helped,  it's not present in the majority of the population, and we wouldn't exist if the norm was to be ill. But mental illness isn't a sin! The same applies to homosexuality. I personally do not agree with the idea/mindset, but I do believe that those who are should be regarded the same as any other person. There is nothing so different about them as to have to create a seperate set of laws; they should be entitled to the same rights. Throughout history, in all sorts of different places, there are and have been similar arguments about whether people of different ethnicities, religions, nationalities, and other beliefs should be permitted marriage. What is the difference in this case? If a gay couple chooses to adopt a child, then fine! What better way for a child to learn tolerance in a society that shuns what is out of the norm?

[Beren One-Hand]

Right and wrong, and issues of morality cannot be compared to physical affirmaties or mental illnesses.  Someone that suffers from schizphrenia is not inherently a "sinner."  Someone who is bi-polar - even though their disorder might cause them to be violent in some cases - and even though violence is sin, cannot be held responsible for all of their actions.  Even if they committ a crime, they will likely be admitted into a mental hospital, rather than a prison.  But issues of immorality do not always warrant - probably in most cases, criminal charges.  Homosexuality fits into the same category as adultery, sexual assault, pedophillia, etc.  Except in the case of adultery and homsexuality - both of which are perversions of what I believe God intended, do not usually fall into the category criminal behaviour.

And what is tolerance?  Does it actually exist?  It is simply something that post-modernism wants us to believe exists - like relativism.  And complete tolerance is a bigger myth than inter-species evolution.  The world will never go this way completely because people will never agree completely.  You might say that people should be tolerant towards homosexuals - say in the matter of marriage.  But I might say that marriage is to be only for same-sex couples.  Both of us are in our right to believe whatever we want to believe.  Technically, tolerance should allow both view points to exist.  But tolerance is a misnomer, because even tolerance cannot be completely tolerant, because it cannot tolerate intolerance.

I don't have an issue with people of different ethnicities marrying.  My wife is of a different race than me.  However, my wife and I share one common, important bond - the same religious beliefs - we are Christians.  And the Bible itself speaks/warns against a believer marrying an unbeliever.  This is a compromise that in many cases only causes grief.  On the same token, a very good friend of mine is a stauch evolutionist/agnostic.  However, he agrees that he would not live with or marry a woman that does not share the same beliefs as he does.  A devout Muslim would never marry a Christian, and vice-versa.

And as to Natural Law, even the homosexual is not beyond God's love and grace, and bears the potential to reallign him/herself with what was intended, even if they struggle to do so.

[Leora]

Homosexuals should be able to get married in a civil way (through the government) so they have the same rights as married heterosexuals.

Obviously they won't get married through a church because churches don't have to let them.

Homosexuals should be able to adopt children unless the child does not want to be placed in their care.

I should rule the world, then everything would be perfect.

And I totally agree with Alca.
.. can I rule the world with you?

Kids that come from either broken homes/foster homes or even from the street might take whatever they can get, even if it means having two dads.  I'd pitty any kid that has to grow up in that situation.  Elementary kids can be quite mean sometimes - taking shots at one's appearance, last name, etc.  They would have a hayday with a kid with two gay parent's.

I'd much rather pity a child having to grow up in a foster home. Having two dads or two moms, regardless, what they'd see is care in love in this family. And be cared for. Because, in my opinion, only a very loving, determined homosexual couple would go as far as marriage and even fewer would trust themselves enough to adopt a child. No family or a loving one with same-gendered parents? I know I'd choose the latter. Bullies, they could bully you for not having parents. Bullies don't care what to bully you about.


Btw, 'Parents should equal husband and wife - not the opposite.' The opposite of 'husband and wife' is 'wife and husband'

[Andúnië]

Thank you, Leora.

But issues of immorality do not always warrant - probably in most cases, criminal charges.  Homosexuality fits into the same category as adultery, sexual assault, pedophillia, etc.  Except in the case of adultery and homsexuality - both of which are perversions of what I believe God intended, do not usually fall into the category criminal behaviour.

I did not imply any behavior was criminal.
But where exactly does morality come into this? I understand where something is wrong in those other cases, but homosexuality is a different thing altogether. There is nothing immoral or wrong about this; it simply is.

[Beren One-Hand]

The opposite of husband and wife is not "wife and husband."  I am talking very simply about husband and wife, collectively.  If you want to say wife and husband it doesn't matter - I'm talking male and female, so it doesn't matter.  Homosexuality is the opposite of hedorosexuality  

[Beren One-Hand]

Post-moderism/the world we live in wants to make us believe that homosexuality is ammoral.  And if that is what you believe then fine.  But in my view, as in the view of many, it is not normal.  What then is morality?  It is what you make it, I guess.  But in Christianity there is more black and white, than grey.  And we choose to clearly draw the line between the two.  If homosexuality is not immoral, then what is immoral?

[Andúnië]

That is true, homosexuality is not normal. But where is morality involved? It is nothing more than abnormal- anyone involved in such a relationship got there by choice. It wrongs no one and nothing. The world is not black and white; things are not that simple. There is nothing that is completely right or wrong in this world, just millions of shades of grey. Even in the most good or evil things, they are not made wholly of good or evil.   

[Zaku]

Exactly, theres no such thing as "right" and "wrong". Theres just actions and the values we assign to them as a society.

[Beren One-Hand]

Andunie: I'll ask you again?  What is morality?  You are right, there is so much grey in the world, but there is still black and white.  Organized religion looks to the black and white issues.  I mean, even within my own Christian sphere, people debate about certain aspects of theology, the Bible, God, etc.  But still there are certain mainstream views that encompass what it means to fall within orthodox Christianity.  And do you really believe all homosexuals got where they are by choice?  Some did, but many people who are homsexual are that way because of sociological reasons.  Some were abused sexually as children; others, say men, had no father figure, and so their only way to find that love they never had from their father, is to find another man to love and share their life with.  It still has not been proven, but it remains possible that one could even be born gay - the possibities are endless in genetics.

Zaku: theres no such thing as "right" and "wrong"?  Then why do societies, as you say, place actions and values to certain things over-against other things?  Why have socities of the past, and even of ancient history placed "actions and values" on certain things?  It is simply this: right and wrong - is a part of the fabric that makes us human.  Natural Law cannot be denied completely.  The fact that you place values on something is not entirely attributed to the society itself either.  Look within yourself: would you not be upset if someone close to you was murdered?  You would be upset for sure, and it wouldn't be only society telling you that you should think so; it would also be something within yourself that you could not explain.

[Zaku]

I'll ask you this, when Saddam was killed, did you see it as wrong? I don't think you did, but I did. So who's right? Answer is, neither of us. It was the action of killing him to which we both apply our own ideas of morality.

Yes, I would be upset. But the murderer wouldn't, and if the circumstances were correct (like, my mother was an abortion clinic doctor, for example) there are others who wouldn't be upset, either. In fact, they would see it as "right".

Also, in nature there is no "right" or "wrong", just actions to survive. An owl kills a mouse. "Wrong" for the mouse maybe, "right" for the owl. Humans just think on a higher level, and come up with concepts of "right" and "wrong".

[Beren One-Hand]

Okay, but even if "right and wrong" is subjective, it still means that it exists.  And I don't believe that one of us necessarily has to be right.  Your right the whole Sadam thing is open for debate as to what was right and wrong there.  But no one would agree that what he did - the killing of hundreds of innocent people was right either.  He might, but then that is a distorted opinion.  And I am sure that there are black and white areas that even you and I would agree on.

But even a murderer, though maybe not upset about the killing itself, might still have some moral values; even the slightest.  Example: I did a practicum at a maximum security prison.  There was an inmate there that had committed some heinous crimes.  He could barely interact with his fellow prisoners, but showed unusual compassion for his pet mouse, which he had captured.  Even the most depraved minds, have some level of inherent morality.