Homosexual Marriage

[Zaku]

Okay, but even if "right and wrong" is subjective, it still means that it exists.  And I don't believe that one of us necessarily has to be right.  Your right the whole Sadam thing is open for debate as to what was right and wrong there.  But no one would agree that what he did - the killing of hundreds of innocent people was right either.  He might, but then that is a distorted opinion.  And I am sure that there are black and white areas that even you and I would agree on.

But even a murderer, though maybe not upset about the killing itself, might still have some moral values; even the slightest.  Example: I did a practicum at a maximum security prison.  There was an inmate there that had committed some heinous crimes.  He could barely interact with his fellow prisoners, but showed unusual compassion for his pet mouse, which he had captured.  Even the most depraved minds, have some level of inherent morality.

Ah, but some see Saddam's brutality as having been necessary for the stability of Iraq.

Also, yes he would have some morals, but that's not my point. My point is that he wouldn't see the murder as "wrong", probably.

[Beren One-Hand]

Hence the subjectivity of morality.  But I still believe there are certain universal moral values that most hold to - or that most would value.  Like I said, values that you and I would agree on. 

I believe that when the essence of Natural Law is debated upon, as it has been for several years now, we as a society are already on a downward spiral.

[Zaku]

Hasn't natural law been discussed since, I dunno, discussion?
I mean, theres Aristotle, Stoics, christian, Hobbes, liberal, contemporary catholic...

[Beren One-Hand]

Yes of course.  It is not to say that our present time is necessarily worse than those of the past.  But my question is how far will the moral decline of this current society go?  History itself has its cycles - kind of like a thesis/antithesis thing.  But from a Christian worldview, I believe that one day, whether it is in 100 years or 1,000, eventually society itself - the world we know, will implode from within.  Moral decline has been one of the major reasons for the downfall of empires throughout history.  Look at Rome.  Now of course moral decline would not be the only reason.
Augustine discusses the "moral collapses" and "decline into immorality" that plagued Rome up to its downfall (City of God, Chapter 33.  And Rome, like America, was founded on good moral principles - what one might call Judeo-Christian values - even though many of the founding fathers were deists - Franklin, Paine and Washington.  Romulus and Remus, it is said even opened an asylum for refugees so they could be free from trouble and persecution (City of God, Chapter 34).  But things declined gradually up to Rome's fall in 410 A.D.

[LOTRfan1414]

Yes, but Rome and America are two very different places. I agree with you on America's "moral decline," but i believe that America will fix itself. Remember in the 1920's many people said that America was going through a "moral decline," and the next generation, was the greatest generation in history.
 
You cannot lose hope in the America, I believe that the country runs in cycles. I believe maybe in the next decade, with a new president, and then a catostrophic disaster will come and us Americans will realize that some of these moral values are necessary. No, we will not get rid of homosexuality and some other problems, but our nation will become great again.

[Andúnië]

Most of this about morality and society is not untrue. I agree with most of it. However, what does homosexuality have to do with morality? It is closer to a psychological state than a contientious decision. This is one of the problems with society; people tend to condem those with contradicting habits. Homosexuality is not a morality issue, and it has nothing to do with morals. It is nothing more than a naturally occuring state.

[numenorian]

I ll disagree with youhomosexuality is not natural.It was nature's failure but that doesn't mean that homosexuals must be kicked off from society or don't have the same rights as any other person.If it was sth natural we wouldn't have so many arguements.

[Andúnië]

I didn't say it was natural, I said it was naturally-occurring. It happens more as an uncontrollable condition, an aquired trait. Of course homosexuality is not normal in nature, but most of the human population have some kind of characteristic that did not develop in nature throughout the course of evolution.

[LOTRfan1414]

YEs Homosexuality is supposedely a genetic mutation, but i disagree with that. There is no real scientific evidence to support that fact, it is only a theory. If it is naturally occuring, than why doesn't every species have homosexual members.

[Andúnië]

YEs Homosexuality is supposedely a genetic mutation, but i disagree with that. There is no real scientific evidence to support that fact, it is only a theory. If it is naturally occuring, than why doesn't every species have homosexual members.

1) Yes, there is a possiblility that homosexuality is not a genetic disorder. Even if it were not, it is still a psychological state. People don't choose to be homosexual.

2) We don't know that other species don't have homosexual members.

[Gliowien]

Homosexuality has always been around, which makes it pretty evident that it's more naturally occuring than people tend to think. People don't think about this when they quote its mentionings in the bible. The bible - "the oldest book". 
And there are known cases of animal homosexuality. Look at bonobos (pygmy chimpanzees):http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Sexual_social_behavior
"Bonobo males frequently engage in various forms of male-male genital sex..."
"Bonobo females also engage in female-female genital sex..."

[Andúnië]

...Which proves that it is natural.

Other animals don't cheat, lie, steal (or kill for those reasons) for revenge, as humans do. People are their own enemies. These traits are the ones that are unnatural and have been aquired; people choose to cheat, lie, and steal. People are not homosexual by choice; therefore we cannot say that it is wrong, or "a sin."

[Beren One-Hand]

Yes I am back.  I think I have made my point in this debate.  To further elaborate would be beating a dead horse or splitting hairs.

[Andúnië]

...which I have already been doing for the past five posts on this topic.

Once again, homosexuality is not something that people choose to have. Therefore it cannot be sinful. If something occurs by chance and by natural processes, whomever it happens to cannot be blamed for something he or she cannot control. I am not advocating homosexuality and saying that it is good, I am merely trying to get a point across.

[Scroll]

It doesn't bother of what others do. I wouldn't be with someone my own gender myself.