Should The Americans pull out of Iraq?

[LOTRfan1414]

I want the troops to come home, they need to be pulled out of there immediately but at the same time this is something that is easiar said than done. If we were to leave I gaurantee you that all that is going on over in iraq will move right on over here. And thats what we are trying to avoid. Regardless to the fact that Bush doesn't want to pull them out. he knows that he messed up big time and now he can't fix it the way he needs to. I want Bush removed from office period because his whole way thinking is messing up this country.

Its just not that simple, randle. First of all if Bush is impeached, that means Dick Cheney will be leading the country, and he would be even worse. And If we leave we leave the good Iraqi people tio fend for themselves. We need to set up a proper government, but we have to do it much quicker than we are now.

You are also wrong when you say what is happening in Iraq will come to America. The insurgents are jut fighting for control of Iraq, they have no resources or means to attack America, not yet anyway.

[Andúnië]

Even though we technically have no "obligation" to the Iraqi, I still believe we should do as much as we can to help. I know that overall, the situation looks hopeless, and as much as I would love U.S. involvement to be over, nothing would improve by us simply leaving at once.

[Brilthor]

May I say something?It seems to me that almost all of you are Americans.It means that you know better what happens in your country,but it also means you don't have a clue what happens in the world(no hard feelings  ).I come from Europe,so I won't debate whether you should pull out of Iraq or not.In the eyes of the rest of the world you are becoming more and more different from that what you often brag with.Liberty,all people equal....ph!!! Many people think you attacked Iraq because of the oil...My country,for example,is not very rich but has great supplies of water.And since water is becoming more and more important...And you often blackmail other countries with giving them less money if they don't send soldiers to Iraq.I can say this:I have travelled a lot and every nation has a different opinion in each subject.But they all agree in this:Since the Bush came your reputation fell rapidly.
     I am just saying what I heard and I know you'll take this as an insult,but I just had to say something.

[LOTRfan1414]

May I say something?It seems to me that almost all of you are Americans.It means that you know better what happens in your country,but it also means you don't have a clue what happens in the world(no hard feelings  ).I come from Europe,so I won't debate whether you should pull out of Iraq or not.In the eyes of the rest of the world you are becoming more and more different from that what you often brag with.Liberty,all people equal....ph!!! Many people think you attacked Iraq because of the oil...My country,for example,is not very rich but has great supplies of water.And since water is becoming more and more important...And you often blackmail other countries with giving them less money if they don't send soldiers to Iraq.I can say this:I have travelled a lot and every nation has a different opinion in each subject.But they all agree in this:Since the Bush came your reputation fell rapidly.
     I am just saying what I heard and I know you'll take this as an insult,but I just had to say something.

You do realize you have no idea what your talking about. Not all Americans are the same you know. Not all Americans are like Bush! Most of us disagree with him just like Europeans. His approval rating is like 25%, and thats the worst in US presidential history! 

Have you ever been in the United States? We are the most diverse and tolerant people in the world. I live in New York City. I live  right nextdoor to a black man, a Family of highly religious Muslims, and a single mom with a child. And you claim that we don't not stand for liberty anymore? Do you think that the insurgents we are fighting are anymore tolerant? If they had it their way you be murdered in your bed for being any different from them!

I am not saying that we are perfect, but which country is? I agree that George Bush is bringing our country down, and like you I think that the only reason he went into Iraq was for oil. Remember thats the reason he went into Iraq not why America went into Iraq. You have to realize that the average American is still a good person.

(Please do not take these words too harshly, and please forgive for being so curt, it is just a sore subject with me. Again sorry, and welcome to the Debating Society.)

[the-glyphon]

May I say something?It seems to me that almost all of you are Americans.It means that you know better what happens in your country,but it also means you don't have a clue what happens in the world(no hard feelings 

Wow, way to make with the rampant stereotypes.  I am a New Zealander currently living in America.  I can say the only thing worse than a very parochial conservative American is someone who has never been to America thinking they know all about the place and the people.  America is an astoundingly huge and diverse country where every possible point of view is represented and hotly debated.  No government would truly be representative and equating foreign policy with public opinion is mind-blowingly simplistic.

[Beren One-Hand]

FAN: America is diverse.  I will give her that.  But the most tolerant country in the world?  Can you be sure this is the case?  When I think of the most tolerant countries in the world, the nations of western Europe come to mind, not America.  Canada, which I am a citizen of, falls more in line with Europe than America. 

[Brilthor]

Sorry,it seems I have expressed myself badly....I know there are good Americans who prefer peace and it really wasn't my intention to make stereotypes.My sister has visited the USA,I have a friend there,and I also have relatives there,so it isn't really that I don't know what I am talking about.I know it is a huge country with different people,but Bush wouldn't have won if more people had voted against than for him.And about the fight for liberty:what did your country do 15 years ago when my country was attacked?
So many people had died untill you decided to interfere,and that intervention was miserable.I don't blaim anybody for that,especially a common American,but your media made it look like we were the invaders.
So,how much do you think you know what happens in the world?How much do you really know?Each country has its faults,I admitt,but when you are a symbol of liberty it is in a way your duty to act like that.

I was not offended,LOTRfan1414,if you are not offended,too.I don't like discussing about politics a lot ,but here I am just trying to say something from a neutral point of view.I am not against the USA,but also not for it at the momment.

[LOTRfan1414]

Beren: Where in Europe do you have people of six different races living right next to each other in peace? Europe seems more tolerant than America, because most countries in Europe only have one maybe two dominant races. America has close to eight.

Brithor: No i am not offended, its just that I've heard this arguement too many times before. I am not sure what country you live in, so I cannot give a reason why we didn't go in. Well it is my personal belief that with the new electronic voting, George Bush fixed the election. But even if he didn't, back in 2004, he didn't seem so bad as he did now. We were only in Iraq for one year, and the WMDs could have still been hidden, but now that we know the truth about Iraq, it is unfair to balme it on the American people for electing him.

[Brilthor]

About Europe:In area about the same size as the USA and with more population live more than 40 nations.Each nation has its demands and minority in almost every other country.Do you know what one nation is capable of?What horribble things it can do?I know...And to meet those same people with a smile when they come as tourists for a vacation in a city they once almost destroyed and say to them:"What can I do for you?"To build them houses almost for free,that is why Europe is tolerant.I don't know well what happens in the USA concerning this matter,so I won't discuss it,perhaps someone from Canada would know it better.
And I find it really sad that someone in the USA can fix the elections(though it's happening worldwide and is old as democracy itself,but somebody would expect of USA to give an example).

p.s.Happy Easter everyone!

[Beren One-Hand]

FAN: The countries of Western Europe are not at war with each other.  And even in those predominantly tolerant countries there will still be small factions of intolerance.  But the overall picture is that Europe is much more tolerant than the US.  Ask WolfChild about the diversity within the UK.  London alone, one of the most metropolitan cities in the world, and is a plethora of cultural/religious diversity.

[LOTRfan1414]

Brithlor- Yea, but mostly everyone from those 40 different nations look exactly the same. Its easy not to have prejudice when their exactly the same as you. In America, their are people of all different races. Black, Middle Eastern, Mexican, Asian, white, purple, green, or blue all are welcome. Did you hear of the problem with millions of illegal immigrants that come from South of the border taking our jobs, and money? They are coming to our country illegally, yet we let them live in our towns, go to our schools (without paying taxes), and recieve health care. Do European counties do that?

Beren- Londen is not as diverse as New York City and is not as tolerant as NYC. Im not saying their not diverse, but they don't have the diversity of America. I go to a public school that has people from over 80 different countries. (25% of which are in South America) There are no problems with race in my school, and it is like a normal high school. I don't think High schools in Europe are as tolerant as my school? What makes you believe that Europe is as tolerant as America?

[Andúnië]

I don't think we can gauge a country's tolerance, really. Tolerance and diversity differ even within a small region. Larger cities to tend to be more diverse, in most globalized/industrialized nations. Small towns tend to be less culturally diverse and less tolerant. Even then, diversity and tolerance don't always correlate. For instance, my school consists of nearly 80% Caucasians, and there have been no tolerance issues- even I, part of a minority, have neither seen nor experienced any. People are generally willing to learn about other cultures, even if they are sometimes ignorant of them. People in the community generally like each other, no matter to cultural differences. We live in a mid-sized university town. Drive out of town to an adjacent little village, and minorities are stared at as if we had landed in a spaceship.

So, returning to the original issue, the people of the U.S. cannot really be blamed for what has happened. Yes, we voted for our government, but firstly, we cannot see everything they might do ahead of time, and secondly, government officials have reasons they did what they did, because they percieved something different (and unfortunately for them, unpopular). The occupation of Iraq was originally well-intentioned, but has curdled since. The latter part of this, at least, I believe we should be able to agree on.

[Beren One-Hand]

FAN: say what you want.  We have to agree to disagree here.  Although, the fact that you mentioned your're a high school student, makes me think you need to go out and see the world more.  In high school, everyone "thinks" they know everything, but when you get out into the real world, whether it be working a job full-time, having a family or going to college or university, you'll see a big differance - in fact your own perception of things will change too.

How are the nations of Europe more tolerant than the US?  First, politically.  Look at the UN.  The US always seems to be going against the grain of the UN, with their policies.  Most nations in Europe (also Canada) have been against the war in Iraq, and didn't believe the White House's claim of WOMD, etc.  Europe is more likely to try and solve a certain situation peacefully, rather than using force.  Second, morally.  And this is also an area which Canada is ahead of the US as well.  Also, as I mentioned in the "homosexual marriage" debate, my personal and moral beliefs are contrary to the national/political views on homosexual marriage.  However, regarding tolerance in the area of homosexual marriage, Canada is more tolerant than the US.    A western European nation like The Netherlands is far ahead of the US in this area, in fact they are probably the most tolerant country in the world.  Look at their stances on marijuana and also homo sexaual marriage.

On a side note: Canada is also more liberal than the US, overall.  And when you look at a per capita percentage of say born-again/Evangelical Christians, the percentage in Canada is much lower than in the US.  In my opinion, the US is a much better country than Canada, morally speaking, because of the stronger presence of Judeo/Christian values that are in place.

[LOTRfan1414]

Beren- Don't think that just because someone is in high school they don't have enough life experiences to make a judgement in the world. I've seen peole get jumped by a gang before, and I've talked to people in Europe. I've had a job, and been treated unfairly. I watch the News ever night and see fighting and discrimination in Europe and the United States. I know how hard life can be, and many of my best friends have gone through the hardships of life. So don't think that just because I'm young, I don't know the world.

Second of all, What does going against the UN, the war in Iraq, and WOMD have to do wth tolerance? You say that Europe is against the war in Iraq? How come England, Albania, Romania, POland, Georgia, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Latvia, Netherlands, Slovenia, Italy, Ukraine, Spain, Hungary, Norway, Portugal, Icelan, and Lithuania all have or had  troops in Iraq. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq)

In the matter of homosexual marriage, America is behind, but it is mainly due to our Conservative Government. President Bush is the main reason the legalizing of Homosexual marriage is not getting passed. In a couple of years when the Democrats are in power, laws will be passed to legalize Homosexuality. And the not legalizing of Marijuana, is because of the drug problem in the U.S.

And just because a country is more liberal doesn't mean its more tolerant. Communist Russia was very far left, but look how tolerant they were.

[Beren One-Hand]

FAN: It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a high school student can have wisdom and maturity, or have experienced hardship.  I experienced my share of hardship growing up and can say I am better for it.  In fact, I don't think there is enough room in this entire forum to express the trials that I have been through.  No matter how many difficulties I have faced, there has been much in the way of joy and happiness and of blessing.  God has been there through it all.  However, the simple fact remains - when your young, you still have - God willing, much of the road left to travel.  I am not old by any means, but are far removed from high school.  Not that I claim to be of superior knowledge and wisdom - because I am not.  I am educated and do know a few things, though.     Nonethless, don't forget to respect those who have been farther down the road than you.  You migth be surprised how much they actually know.  Certain things your parent's, or parent's in general say are good; certain things are not.   But there comes a time when those "good things," even things that we might have thought to be not good, will be recognized for what they are - good.

Most of the European nations you quote are of either northern or eastern Europe.  If you will flip back a bit in the debate, you'll notice that I am referring to western Europe, primarily.  Okay, you mentioned England, however, amongest many of the people in the UK, the war in Iraq has been unpopular.

The UN is not perfect.  But falling in line with an international body/council like the UN is a good thing most of the time.  You see, in order for something like the UN to work - to be pragmatic, there has to be compromise and oppenness.  And those sort of things should lead to tolerance.  The whole notion of WOMD continues to mock the current Bush administration.

I wouldn't venture to call the Communist regime of the former USSR liberal.  That regime tried to destroy God and religion - that my friend is intolerance.  And if you check out Webster's Dictionary, one of the definitions of "liberal" is "to be tolerant or broad-minded."  Tolerance is a thing primarily and mainly of the Western world, and Russia and the East are still a long way from any legitimate form of tolerance.  And I would still say that as a general rule, that "more liberal means more tolerant."  Believe what you like.

Well, FAN, once again I enjoy debating with you.  Take care!